Ten Best Managers

[David Gwilliam]

"Writing off a manager because he is Scottish is ridiculous. In fact Scotland have a very good record of producing great managers."

Profondo's comment on managers on another thread is quite right. It led me to put my own list of the ten best managers in England since the war. Any such list is, of course,aimed to provoke.
(1) Brian Clough
(2) Alf Ramsey
(3) Matt Busby
(4) Sir Alex Ferguson
(5) Bill Shankley/Bob Paisley
(6) Stan Cullis
(7) Bill Nicholson
(8) Don Revie
(9) Arsene Wenger
(10) Kenny Dalglish

Brian Clough for me comes top because when he took over Derby and Forest they were languishing near the bottom of the 2wnd division and to talk of them competing with Man U and Liverpool would have seemed ridiculous. He also did it while playing sporting and attractive football the opposite of his enemy Don Revie.
Alf Ramsey not only won the world cup but created a side that was even better in 1970 when only injury to Gordon Banks let us down. He was sacked after the most one-sdied of 1-1 draws. His world cup success should not obscure the fact that he won the First Civision with Ipswich.
It is difficult to separate Busby and Ferguson. I have given Busby the niod because when he took over Man U they were not a big club. He created a side that was not only the best in England bujt was actually popular. No club has ever suffered what Man U suffered in the air crash yet in 1968 he had another great side. It is difficult to imagine how good the 1968 side would have been if Duncan Edwards had lived - suffice to say that he was the most gifted young player I have ever seen including Best and Rooney.
Sir Alex is clearly the best of the current managers - though I have not included Mourhino because his time uin England was so short.
I have never been able to separate Shankley from Paisley. I think Paisley actually won more but it was with the club that Shankley had built.
It is difficult to separate Cullis from Nicholson. I have picked Cullis because he won ther 1st Division with Wolves a smaller club and because he was one of the pioneers of playing European football.
Some people would rank Don Revie higher. I find it difficult to rank him at all since it is pretty certain that he made two failed attempts at bribery on at least two occasiuons - we are less likely to find out about any successful bribes.
Although Arsene Wenger is not British his achievements have been in England. For a number of years he was able to rival Sir Alex with far less money. He also ended the Arsenal reputation for cynical football that stretched from Bertie Mee to George Graham.
I have the feeling that I may have underrated Kenny Dalglish - perhapos because he is so boring - but his achievemerrnts at Blackburn and Liverpool must get him in the top ten.

I have left noiut Jock Stein since I do not know enough about Scottish football to judge him.His time in English football with Leeds was very short.

No doubt I will soon be reading how wrong my list is. I look forward to it.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Re: Best Ten Managers

His world cup success should not obscure the fact that he won the First Civision with Ipswich.

I think you've obscured the real achievement yourself. He took Ipswich over as a mediocre mid-table Third Division and turned them into champions of England within the space of 7 years.

When Clough took over Forest and Derby they had a history of being yo-yo clubs a bit like they are now, in fact Forest had come runners-up in the First Division only 4 or 5 seasons before Clough took over, but when Alf Ramsey took over Ipswich they had never been anywhere near the First Division, they were a lower league nothing club. Also when they beat Spurs to the title in 61/62, Jimmy Greaves alone cost twice as much as the entire Ipswich squad put together.

I'm always surprised how people go on about Clough, Revie and Shankly taking clubs from the lower leagues and making them great, but Ramsey's achievement at Ipswich was probably better than any of them but never gets mentioned. It would be the equivalent today of taking someone like Walsall or Leyton Orient and turning them into the best team in the country.

It is difficult to separate Busby and Ferguson. I have given Busby the niod because when he took over Man U they were not a big club. He created a side that was not only the best in England bujt was actually popular. No club has ever suffered what Man U suffered in the air crash yet in 1968 he had another great side. It is difficult to imagine how good the 1968 side would have been if Duncan Edwards had lived - suffice to say that he was the most gifted young player I have ever seen including Best and Rooney.
Sir Alex is clearly the best of the current managers

What Busby achieved at ManUtd was indeed great but Fergie has to be the better of the two imo. ManUtd weren't much cop when Fergie took over either and while Busby did have to rebuild his side after the Munich air-crash, Fergie has built several teams over the years and has never finished below 3rd in almost 20 years.

Yes, the Busby Babe's were great, but the young ManUtd squad of the early 90s was also great and built through the youth team. Those two teams have probably been the best youth squads England has ever seen.

At the end of the day, no other manager in England has even come close to winning the sheer amount of honours Fergie has, well over twice what Busby won at ManUtd.

Other than that, good list. Fergie would be #1 for me though.

 

[jb5000]

Re: Best Ten Managers

I have the feeling that I may have underrated Kenny Dalglish - perhapos because he is so boring - but his achievemerrnts at Blackburn and Liverpool must get him in the top ten.

Personally, I think you're overating him. At Blackburn he had Jack Walker's fortune to buy the best team around. While at Liverpool he was handed the best team in the land by the bootroom, sure he won a few things with it, but what did he hand on to the next manager? It was Kenny who killed the bootroom, not Souness.

I think you're missing one of the best in Bobby Robson. Winning the Uefa Cup with Ipswich was quite an achievement in the first place, but he did so buying something like 14 players in 13 years and bringing everyone else through the youth team. But to have the balls to go abroad after the England job - when this was something english managers just didn't do - and to win titles with PSV and Porto and cups with Barcelona was something beyond. It's telling that he was the last manager to do anything with Newcastle.

 

[Blue Maniac]

Re: Best Ten Managers

(1) Brian Clough
(2) Alf Ramsey
(3) Matt Busby
(4) Sir Alex Ferguson
(5) Bill Shankley/Bob Paisley
(6) Stan Cullis
(7) Bill Nicholson
(8) Don Revie
(9) Arsene Wenger
(10) Kenny Dalglish

Why are there eleven managers in the top ten?

 

[tedfoxxx]

Re: Best Ten Managers

Why are there eleven managers in the top ten?

Have you not heard? Bill Shankley and Bob Paisley were actually the same person.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Re: Best Ten Managers

As I expected there have been some interesting comments.

Profondo is always profound. There is a strong case for Sir Alf to be number one. I picked Cloughie partly because of the drama of his Forest success. He had won the First Division with Derby and this had been followed by the nonsense at Leeds. There had to be many people expecting him to fail at Forest and believing that Derby was a one-off. Some of the worst characters in football - Revie and Sir Harold Thomnpson - must have been positively wanting him to fail. Yet he made Forest the best team in Europe for twoyears.There was also the emotional impact of Clough. His teams did not harrass the referees, they were not cynical - he was the very opposite of most 1970s teams. There was also the feeling - right or wrong - that he cared about football fans in a way that few others did.
When Sir Alex took over Man U they were a sleeping giant when Busby took over they were not even the biggest club in Manchester. It was Busby who made Manchester United a great club. Any good manager should do well with Manchester United these days - though they are unlikely to do as well as Sir Alex.
Blue Maniac points out that there are eleven names on the list. I find it difficult to distinguish between the Liverpool of Shankley and that of Paisley. Paisely was Shankleys number 2. I believe he won more honoiurs than Shankley but with the team Shankey created.
JB 5000 questions my leaving out Bobby Robson. I very much admired Sir Bobby as a man and my heart said to put him in instead of Kenny Dalglish. My head said that Sir Bobby's record in England did not compare with that of Dalglish. He nearly made the top ten just as he nearly won the League with Ipswich and nearly won the World Cup with England.
If it had been favourite managers I would have been unable to resist including Mourinho. My own bias would have included Tommy Docherty, Jimmy Bloomfield and Martin O'Neill among my ten favourites but they could not rank among the best.

 

[Blue Maniac]

Blue Maniac points out that there are eleven names on the list. I find it difficult to distinguish between the Liverpool of Shankley and that of Paisley. Paisely was Shankleys number 2. I believe he won more honoiurs than Shankley but with the team Shankey created.

The logic may appear sound to some but it still hurts my brain. Does Paisley deserve his place or not? If so, should we knock all those below him down a slot?

 

[Hazzman]

Re: Best Ten Managers

Phil Brown and surprised Bobby Robson's not mentioned.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Re: Best Ten Managers

The logic may appear sound to some but it still hurts my brain. Does Paisley deserve his place or not? If so, should we knock all those below him down a slot?

You are being too polite. What I did with Bob Paisley was a cop-out because I really felt I did not know how good a manager he was.

 

[buzzer_b]

Re: Best Ten Managers

Jose Mourinho?

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Re: Best Ten Managers

You are being too polite. What I did with Bob Paisley was a cop-out because I really felt I did not know how good a manager he was.

Personally, I think it's the other way round. There's an opinion among some Liverpool fans that Paisley was doing all the wok during Shankly's reign, it's just that Shankly's bullish personality always caused him to take president over Paisley's shy, retiring nature.

Look at Bill Shankly's record before he joined Liverpool - it is very poor indeed. Relegated Huddersfield, turned Grimsby from promotion chasers to relegation battlers and stood still at Carlisle. Then at Liverpool, it was well known that it was not a one man job, and he set up the "boot room" where him, Joe Fagan and Bob Paisley would discuss everything at the club. Now Paisley would go on to become the second most successful manager in the history of English football, after Fergie and would go on to win the European Cup more times than any other manager (this record still stands today). I'm pretty sure I've read before that Shankly also left the tactical side of the game to Paisley too.

Secondly, I don't buy the "it was Shankly's team" shtick. When Paisley took over, they had won a couple of titles over a 10 year period under Shankly but had also often finished around 5th or 6th place, they weren't the biggest club in England. Paisley took them over and not only turned them into unquestionably the best team in England, but also in Europe.

When Paisley won his first European Cup in 1977, 7 of his 11 players were his signings, so it was hardly doing well with Shakly's side. Dalglish and Rush, probably the greatest strike-force English football has ever seen were both his signings. He also got rid of Shakly's best player (Kevin Keegan) and still pushed the team onto much better things.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think Shankly was a good manager and a first class man manager, but i do feel he gets a little overrated because of his bullish personality and one-liners, whereas Paisley also get underrated because of his retiring personality.

Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan together turned Liverpool into very good, but not the the best, English team, about on the level Arsenal are on now.

Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan together, without Shankly, turned them into undoubtedly the best team in Europe.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Re: Best Ten Managers

Jose Mourinho?

Two years of success on an unlimited budget? I don't think he should be anywhere near the top 20 managers in English football personally.

surprised Bobby Robson's not mentioned.

Most of Bobby Robson's success was abroad though. Never even won a league title in England.

 

[Macky]

What exactly is a 'Ten Manager' and how do we judge who's the best?

 

[buzzer_b]

Re: Best Ten Managers

Two years of success on an unlimited budget? I don't think he should be anywhere near the top 20 managers in English football personally.

When looking at what he achevied at Porto, Chelsea and Inter, I would say he's not a bad shout.

 

[David Gwilliam]

I like Mourinho and think he may be the best manager in the world. However, I left him out because he spent such a short time in England. I would love to see him come back and notice that Milan has stated he is going abroad to interview a manager so maybe _______.

As with Bobby Robson I have gone by the manager's achievements in England otherwise Jock Stein might well have been in the top ten.

Macky asks a good question about criteria. To be in the top ten I felt the manager had to have won something - which went against Bobby Robson. I felt that winning a major trophy with Ipswich or Derby or Forest was a greater achievement than winning it with a big club like Man U or Arsenal or Liverpool. There was also an even more subjective element. The Man U of Busby were a delight to watch whereas there have been times when I have felt the Man U of Ferguson owes more to the spirit of Don Revie. I had better qualify that by quickly saying that I am not suggesting that Ferguson is corrupt but that his team is often meanspirited, ungracious and unsporting..

 

[Macky]

Macky asks a good question about criteria.

Actually, Macky was trying to be smart by asking a question about naming a thread 'Best Ten Managers' instead of 'Ten Best Managers'.

 

[Hazzman]

Re: Best Ten Managers

Most of Bobby Robson's success was abroad though. Never even won a league title in England.

I thought we were talking British managers...not 'in England'.

All things considered he'd be a decent 11th choice...with Ipswich never out of the top six, twice runners-up, UEFA Cup winners and in 13 years, signed just 14 players.

 

[Blue Maniac]

Re: Best Ten Managers

I thought we were talking British managers...not 'in England'.

All things considered he'd be a decent 11th choice...with Ipswich never out of the top six, twice runners-up, UEFA Cup winners and in 13 years, signed just 14 players.

There are already eleven. He'd have to be 12th.

 

[Dunmow Fox Jr]

where's MARTIN O'NEIL on that list !!!!!

 

[Profondo Rosso]

where's MARTIN O'NEIL on that list !!!!!

Behind Matt Gillies, Peter Hodge and Willie Orr.