Martin Allen finally explains what happened at City

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I would have thought a gent like yourself would respect a woman's decision on whether she preferred Miss, Mrs, or yes even Ms.

Why do you refuse to use Ms? Why do you think a woman's marital status should matter when addressing her?


Off topic but since two people have asked different facets of the same question I will answer. I recommend everyone except JB and Profondo to read something more interesting.

Originally the term for a woman was Goodwife. For women whether married or not the short version was Goody (e.g. Goody Twoshoes). Perhaps I should have referred to the Chief Executive as Goody Whelan

There are two problems with Mrs and Miss. (1) It is difficult to know whether a woman is married or not. (2) It should not matter whether a woman is married or not. The answer is to give the title of Mrs to all adult women just as all adult men are Mr.

I support many forms of feminism. I am all for women having equal status, boxing or playing rugby, favour free child care, would have liked to have seen Caroline Flint as Labour leader and do not understand why women change their name on getting married. I do not support Ms.

Oh dear the women who prefer Ms - oh I could go on but I will just mention one who dismissed my favourite painter Raphael with contempt as "just another dead white European male".

JB and Profondo if you actually read this I bet you wish you had never asked the question.
 
It seemed to me that he said it was because he wouldn't play Mandaric's signings and that the tipping point was not playing the second half at Forest.
Ah. That might be what he was getting at, yeah. Anyone following at the time knew that he had nothing to do with signing the garbage Danish keeper or the now-forgotten Dutch midfielder because he clearly had no plans to use them. The story about the Forest game is... interesting. I'm inclined to take the content of this interview with a large handful of salt though, because of the inaccuracies. I'm disturbed by his contention that he had signed good players. He hadn't.
 
Off topic but since two people have asked different facets of the same question I will answer. I recommend everyone except JB and Profondo to read something more interesting.

Originally the term for a woman was Goodwife. For women whether married or not the short version was Goody (e.g. Goody Twoshoes). Perhaps I should have referred to the Chief Executive as Goody Whelan

There are two problems with Mrs and Miss. (1) It is difficult to know whether a woman is married or not. (2) It should not matter whether a woman is married or not. The answer is to give the title of Mrs to all adult women just as all adult men are Mr.

I support many forms of feminism. I am all for women having equal status, boxing or playing rugby, favour free child care, would have liked to have seen Caroline Flint as Labour leader and do not understand why women change their name on getting married. I do not support Ms.

Oh dear the women who prefer Ms - oh I could go on but I will just mention one who dismissed my favourite painter Raphael with contempt as "just another dead white European male".

JB and Profondo if you actually read this I bet you wish you had never asked the question.
That's a lot of words to not answer the question, Mr G.
 
Oh dear the women who prefer Ms - oh I could go on but I will just mention one who dismissed my favourite painter Raphael with contempt as "just another dead white European male".

Go on then. Don't leave us in suspense.
 
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Off topic but since two people have asked different facets of the same question I will answer. I recommend everyone except JB and Profondo to read something more interesting.

Originally the term for a woman was Goodwife. For women whether married or not the short version was Goody (e.g. Goody Twoshoes). Perhaps I should have referred to the Chief Executive as Goody Whelan

There are two problems with Mrs and Miss. (1) It is difficult to know whether a woman is married or not. (2) It should not matter whether a woman is married or not. The answer is to give the title of Mrs to all adult women just as all adult men are Mr.

I support many forms of feminism. I am all for women having equal status, boxing or playing rugby, favour free child care, would have liked to have seen Caroline Flint as Labour leader and do not understand why women change their name on getting married. I do not support Ms.

Oh dear the women who prefer Ms - oh I could go on but I will just mention one who dismissed my favourite painter Raphael with contempt as "just another dead white European male".

JB and Profondo if you actually read this I bet you wish you had never asked the question.

What difference does it matter whether it's Ms. or Mrs. The whole point of Ms. was a universally accepted title which showed marital status doesn't matter (which Mrs. absolutely isn't and is still associated with marital status whether you personally regard it as so as not).

You seem to agree that marital status shouldn't matter but then still defend terms which have the association of it.

Then your opposition to Ms. seems to be based on nothing but "cause of those damned feminists" which has nothing to do with it. The fact you try and caveat your opinion by saying you agree with feminists who think there should be female firepeople says it all - that's nothing to do with feminism - that's just common fecking sense and deceny.

I don't understand why you wouldn't just treat someone with respect to what they wish to be called if they don't think their marital status should be indicated as it is with Mrs. - hell, we call writers and musicians and actors different names to their given named because they tell us to for no good reason and no one cares. But as soon as someone asks for it for genuine reasons of respect you rally against it and the only reason you seem to give for it is because "it's those damn feminists telling me too". Wtf?
 
Off topic but since two people have asked different facets of the same question I will answer. I recommend everyone except JB and Profondo to read something more interesting.

Originally the term for a woman was Goodwife. For women whether married or not the short version was Goody (e.g. Goody Twoshoes). Perhaps I should have referred to the Chief Executive as Goody Whelan

There are two problems with Mrs and Miss. (1) It is difficult to know whether a woman is married or not. (2) It should not matter whether a woman is married or not. The answer is to give the title of Mrs to all adult women just as all adult men are Mr.

I support many forms of feminism. I am all for women having equal status, boxing or playing rugby, favour free child care, would have liked to have seen Caroline Flint as Labour leader and do not understand why women change their name on getting married. I do not support Ms.

Oh dear the women who prefer Ms - oh I could go on but I will just mention one who dismissed my favourite painter Raphael with contempt as "just another dead white European male".

JB and Profondo if you actually read this I bet you wish you had never asked the question.

Thanks for the answer - I'm not feeling any the wiser though.

You have respected the names Profundo and I have chosen for ourselves on this forum. I do not think you would be shocked to hear that my mother does not call me 'JB5000' though. I'd be surprised if Susan Whelan let it be known that she would prefer to be called Sue or Ann, or by whatever her middle name is, you didn't respect that. If she had done this before coming to be LCFC you would probably be none the wiser that this wasn't her full name, or seek out what it is in order to call her that. So why would you not respect the title she asks to go by? If she had earned a doctorate or held a professorial chair would you be happy to use the titles that come with these, as, I imagine, you might a man?

You mention that you do not see why women change their names when they get married. While this is becoming less common, I don't see what place either of us have to question an individual woman's choice is here. I always said to my own good wife that it was her business what she called herself when we got married, although I'm first to admit that our children's surname was not something I considered moving on - I wonder what your position is on that aspect of family names? Thankfully we live in a society in which women choose their husband, while others in the world are not so lucky. We will never be in a position though whereby women can choose their father, so I can completely understand why a woman my wish to change her name. Can't you?

This all revolves around a peculiarly British freedom - that our name is what we say it is. I do not think that it is a coincidence that in a country like Germany, which has a culture of calling all adult women Frau irrespective of marital status, parents are expected to choose their baby's name from an approved list (with children receiving a name from the state within a fortnight otherwise) - and individuals find changing their name, for whatever reason, much more complicated.

And finally, on your comment about Raphael. I'd rather spend an evening at the ballet than an afternoon in an art gallery (unless I happen to be close to Florence's wonderful Uffizi). Decidedly white and european, I will give you. Though thankfully the performers are usually alive.
 
Wow! It all, stems from a throw away line about the Chief Executive. I really thought only JB an d Profondo would read the longer reply. In future I will refer to her as Babe Whelan. That should avoid controversy.

There are too many points for me to answer every one.
The point about the Raphael quote was that he was being dismissed - it was a derogatory comment. I would guess they would have said the same "just" about Michelangelo, Mozart or Milton.
Of course women are free to change their name when they get married. I expressed surprise rather than disapproval. I have yet to meet a man who gave up his name on becoming married.
The idea that women should become firefighters (your example Profondo - mine was boxers and rugby players) is not a matter of feminism would surprise a lot of people.
I don't agree that being "just common fecking sense and decency" stops something being feminist To me being pro-choice is " just common fecking sense and decency" but American friends might count it as their most important feminist cause.
Yes JB I understand that your mother does not call you JB. I respect the majority view that prefers a pseudonym although I do not agree with it. I originally joined FoxesTalk but left it not because of any quarrel with the site but because I was personally uncomfortable at using a pseudonym. At no point have I suggested the forum should change its policy. Members are entitled to call themselves Great Cthulhu or Keyser Soze.
To return to the thread perhaps Martin Allen was the supreme feminist. He was known to use the same language to laundry ladies as he did to players.
 
The Raphael thing was ignored because it was completely irrelevant - So because one woman dismissed Raphael - which she's perfectly entitled to do - as art, after all, affects people in different ways - and is likely to appeal to different demographics with different life experiences and roles and upbringings in society, differently (Especially when art criticism and historians has been dominated pretty much exclusively by wealthy, white, heterosexual, western males over the years and had favoured art which is made by and favoured towards that demographic -
Heck! Even Virginia Woolf, who is now considered one of the greatest writers of all-time was written off by critics in her day and it took feminism and other demographics' appreciation for her to eventually get her due.) - that's your reason for saying "oh dear" to people who prefer Ms?

I just don't get it? I hope I'm wrong but I just can't see where you're coming from. Your reasoning behind it is at best utterly bizarre and nonsensical and at worst held with some deep-seated prejudices against anyone who dare call themselves a feminist and pandering some kind of archaic status quo of societal structure.
 
Your reasoning behind it is at best utterly bizarre and nonsensical and at worst held with some deep-seated prejudices against anyone who dare call themselves a feminist and pandering some kind of archaic status quo of societal structure.

A wonderful passage. Not just "bizarre and nonsensical" but "utterly" so. But it is not "at best".
"Pandering some kind of archaic status quo of societal structure" is even better. Walking stick and arthritis be damned; the grumpy old man still causes mischief.

Susan Whelan has got nice tits, though

Bless her

Yes she does have what Profondo would probably call "a splendid frontage". :)
And bless Homer too.
 
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