Cardiff (a) 2-0

[lanxfox jnr]

Prrrreeessstttooonnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

[syd]

I think I'd suggest Waghorn over Dyer simply because he's the one in form at the moment, or something like that, and because - in spite of his last few months - he is a much better player, especially if there's a risk of sides putting the boot into us a bit more from this point on. And I'd love to hear the logic behind Bruma's selection.

As for 'Sven out', no of course I don't think that! But we can't get so blinded by premature hero worship that we think he never puts a foot wrong. For those who said things like 'I was wrong about Sven / I'm glad O'Neill didn't come back' there's still plenty of time for you to be left with egg on your faces! He's achieved nothing yet.

 

[Jeff]

I seem to recall Heart fans saying Bamba was a better midfielder than a centre-back.

Hibs fans said that.

 

[Graz]

Gutted, but still far from out of it.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but Stringer and Young (*shudder*) made a good point, saying that we don't really have a plan B for when it's not working with our starting lineup and neat, passing football, and it seems to be true.

Now excuse me while I go throw up and try to wash the disgust of agreeing with them away, Lady Macbeth style.

 

[Polar Bear]

He's achieved nothing yet.

Well, we won't get relegated, which was looking far from the case when he was appointed.

 

[fitz]

I think I'd suggest Waghorn over Dyer simply because he's the one in form at the moment, or something like that, and because - in spite of his last few months - he is a much better player, especially if there's a risk of sides putting the boot into us a bit more from this point on. And I'd love to hear the logic behind Bruma's selection.

The one in form? So we should base form on the last 5 minutes a player plays. Christ on a bike.

 

[Graz]

Feckin' Rhydal. No more starting pre-match threads for him!

 

[syd]

Dyer was in instead of Waghorn because he is a much better player who has had a much better season.

We didn't have any centre-halves.

And if you mean centre-backs, then both Bruma and Bamba have played in midfield before, in fact I seem to recall Heart fans saying Bamba was a better midfielder than a centre-back.

Centre half is still a valid term for a central defender, or a stopper, or whatever you like. And if you want to get picky...

I'm not interested in where Bamba has played for Hibernian - don't recall him having turned out for Hearts myself - for us, in a far superior league, he's played well in the centre of defence and only in the centre of defence. That makes it a gamble to play him elsewhere. As for Bruma, we know very little about him as it stands. We had an Arsenal winger on loan (Ryan Smith?) a few years back who everyone temporarily soiled themselves over but after a short while it became clear he was rubbish. Bruma could just as easily go down that path.

As for Dyer, yes he's had a better season, no he's not a better player than Waghorn. If Waghorn is getting anywhere near returning to last season's form - and bearing in mind tonight he was desperate to make an impact at the place it 'all went wrong' - then that particular selection decision was dumb. And the proof? We lost, didn't we?

 

[lanxfox jnr]

Feckin' Rhydal. No more starting pre-match threads for him!

I reckon we ban him!!! :icon_wink

 

[Profondo Rosso]

I think I'd suggest Waghorn over Dyer simply because he's the one in form at the moment, or something like that, and because - in spite of his last few months - he is a much better player, especially if there's a risk of sides putting the boot into us a bit more from this point on. And I'd love to hear the logic behind Bruma's selection.

As for 'Sven out', no of course I don't think that! But we can't get so blinded by premature hero worship that we think he never puts a foot wrong. For those who said things like 'I was wrong about Sven / I'm glad O'Neill didn't come back' there's still plenty of time for you to be left with egg on your faces! He's achieved nothing yet.

:icon_lol: Are you actually having a laugh?! 5 minutes - 1 goal which fell to him thanks to an incredibly luck deflection = in form?! :icon_lol:

The logic behind Burma's selection. Sven sees him every day in the training ground, you even said you weren't at the game today, so you have no idea how he plays. The logic behind it was probably that Sen thought he was the best player for that position in this particular game, it's not that hard.

I'm glad Sven came over O'Neill and always was from day one, because he is a far, far better manager. That has nothing to do with thinking he couldn't put a foot wrong or hero worship, it's to do with the fact he has achieved much much more and shown greater tactical nous as well as a greater eye for a player and better all round managerial ability over a sustained period of many years.

"Egg on our faces" - ****ing hell! It sounds to me as though you actually want him to fail just so you can get some pointless sense of one oneupmanship - have a word with yourself.

Hibs fans said that.

Ture. :icon_wink

 

[Billyjof]

Fecks sake.

Loss, so what, bound to happen, next...

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Centre half is still a valid term for a central defender, or a stopper, or whatever you like. And if you want to get picky...

No, it's not. A centre-half was a position popular decades a go (Billy Wright was a centre-half for example) that is virtually never played in the modern game. It was much more akin to the modern defensive midfielder, than the modern centre-back.

I'm not interested in where Bamba has played for Hibernian - don't recall him having turned out for Hearts myself - for us, in a far superior league, he's played well in the centre of defence and only in the centre of defence. That makes it a gamble to play him elsewhere. As for Bruma, we know very little about him as it stands. We had an Arsenal winger on loan (Ryan Smith?) a few years back who everyone temporarily soiled themselves over but after a short while it became clear he was rubbish. Bruma could just as easily go down that path.

Who has said anything about Burma's ability here? I said that Sven watches him every day in training, we don't and the logic behind his selection was probably that he thought that he would be the best player to select in that position for this particular game and that's it.

The fact that syd questions his selection when he hasn't even seen him play is laughable.

And as for Bamba. :icon_lol: You haven't even seen him play in midfield and you already don't want him playing there?! :icon_lol:

As for Dyer, yes he's had a better season, no he's not a better player than Waghorn. If Waghorn is getting anywhere near returning to last season's form - and bearing in mind tonight he was desperate to make an impact at the place it 'all went wrong' - then that particular selection decision was dumb. And the proof? We lost, didn't we?

Proof?! :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: If Waghorn would've played we could've lost by 4 or 5 for all you know. Us losing when he's not playing, does not equate to proof that playing him would have been a better selection.

Oh noes! He's desperate to prove himself! So he must have had a good game! Because Waggy wanted to prove himself after missing a penalty! He's a Leicester LEGEND though because he cried because he CARES ABOUT US! And he has PASSHUN!

I've always considered Dyer a better player than Waghorn, even last season.

 

[Macky]

We need more centre-halves and wing-backs, then I can pretend that my time travel experiments have gone to plan.

"Look at me Mammy, it's 1956 and I've got a laptop on the Internets!"

 

[Profondo Rosso]

We need more centre-halves and wing-backs, then I can pretend that my time travel experiments have gone to plan.

"Look at me Mammy, it's 1956 and I've got a laptop on the Internets!"

:icon_lol:

 

[syd]

You'll find plenty of recent journalistic references to a 'centre half', and from within football you'll find even more from Harry Redknapp.

Look, some people have clearly got a bit too excited about Sven. At this level he isn't as good a manager as O'Neill, or at least he hasn't proven himself to be yet. He is a great manager, but whether he's right for a game where the physical demands outweigh the skilful element remains to be seen.

I didn't see the game, you didn't see the game, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is that neither of us have seen Bruma in training and that he isn't paid for what he does in training. It's a weak argument. After all, wasn't Kermorgant supposedly one of our finest down at Belvoir Drive? Never missed a chance by all accounts.

We got something wrong tonight, we have to be able to admit that much. I feel Waghorn isn't suited to the sort of passing football Sven favours, but if we occasionally revert to the direct ball he may be a far more useful player. And if we want to win games, we're going to have to shake it up a bit.

 

[syd]

The fact that syd questions his selection when he hasn't even seen him play is laughable.

I've always considered Dyer a better player than Waghorn, even last season.

Point one: Surely you should always question the selection of someone you've never seen play? Especially when he's selected ahead of two or three players you HAVE seen - Abe for instance - who can do a job. It's not an especially great idea to go picking players, or even approving of their selection, if you've never seen them. Which is why I think people who wet themselves when we sign these unknowns are just a little premature.

Point two: If you thought Dyer was a better player than Waghorn last season, then my guess is that you saw even less football than I did. He wasn't and, if we vary our game to occasionally meet Waghorn's strengths (which we may need to do if we want to go up), I suspect you'll soon see that this isn't the case now either.

For now, though, I suggest you reattach the blinkers and leap back on the bandwagon.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

You'll find plenty of recent journalistic references to a 'centre half', and from within football you'll find even more from Harry Redknapp.

Yes and you'll also hear plenty of examples in the press of people putting "an" in front of a word beginning with a non-silent "h" e.g. "an historic event." Just because journalists do it, it doesn't stop it from being a horrendous error.

Look, some people have clearly got a bit too excited about Sven. At this level he isn't as good a manager as O'Neill, or at least he hasn't proven himself to be yet. He is a great manager, but whether he's right for a game where the physical demands outweigh the skilful element remains to be seen.

Ah the old "he hasn't proven himself at this level" shtick. Apparently you can win some of Europe's top leagues and reach 5 European finals, but it doesn't matter if you haven't proven yourself at Championship level.

And where has MON proven himself at Championship level? Half a good season at Norwich, which is similar to what Sven has done here. Followed by a medicore half season at Leicester in which he basically had mid-table form and took us from comfortably being in the automatic promotion positions to nearly not making the play-offs.

A game where the physical demands outweigh the skilful elements? 2 points:

1. You really think Swedish or Italian football (not including Milan obviously) is built around skill? A recommendation, go buy Jonathan Wilson's excellent book Inverting the Pyramid and you'll see that Sven's success is hugely influenced by Roy Hodgson and Bobby Houghton bringing an English style of play to Sweden.
2. West Brom and Blackpool got promoted with last season with footballing sides. There is absolutely no reason a footballing side can't get promoted from this division. It could be argued in fact that it gives you an advantage over this idea that is constantly peddled that you must be a physical side in the Championship and that the only reason teams still put out physical teams is because it's so engrained in the division's culture.

I didn't see the game, you didn't see the game, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is that neither of us have seen Bruma in training and that he isn't paid for what he does in training. It's a weak argument. After all, wasn't Kermorgant supposedly one of our finest down at Belvoir Drive? Never missed a chance by all accounts.

What exactly is your point here? Where have I said anything about Bruma's ability? You asked what the logic in Sven picking him is, I asked he obviously impressed in training and that Sven thought he was best in that position for this game.

We got something wrong tonight, we have to be able to admit that much. I feel Waghorn isn't suited to the sort of passing football Sven favours, but if we occasionally revert to the direct ball he may be a far more useful player. And if we want to win games, we're going to have to shake it up a bit.

Where have I said we haven't got something wrong? Why do we have to shake it up a bit to win games? Barcelona play exactly the same way every week and I believe they've won quite a few games over the past 3 years or so.

Point one: Surely you should always question the selection of someone you've never seen play? Especially when he's selected ahead of two or three players you HAVE seen - Abe for instance - who can do a job.

Are you actually serious?! Why should you always question the selection of someone you've never seen play?! That's ****ing ridiculous! If that were the case we'd never have new players in the side and this starting xi would still be the same even when they're all 73 years old.

Surely, you shouldn't judge a player before you've seen him play, any other reaction is utterly ludicrous.

It's not an especially great idea to go picking players, or even approving of their selection, if you've never seen them. Which is why I think people who wet themselves when we sign these unknowns are just a little premature.

Do you honestly think Sven has not seen Bruma play before? In scouting missions or in training? If you mean in the Leicester first team, then you are having a joke surely? We'd never see another player if that were the case.

In terms of approving the selection: where have I or anyone done that?! But by the same token it is also a ridiculous idea to say that a player is shit or shouldn't be in the team if you've never seen a player play, which is what you seem happy enough to do.

Point two: If you thought Dyer was a better player than Waghorn last season, then my guess is that you saw even less football than I did.

I saw every home game and several away ones. I thought Waghorn had a good season, or rather, half season, but was nowhere near one of our best players. Dyer had a better season than him.

He wasn't and, if we vary our game to occasionally meet Waghorn's strengths (which we may need to do if we want to go up), I suspect you'll soon see that this isn't the case now either.

Why should we adapt our very successful style under Sven to meet the needs of one player, to whom we have much superior player than?

For now, though, I suggest you reattach the blinkers and leap back on the bandwagon.

No blinkers on me, mate. No bandwagon been jumped on either. He's an excellent manager, it doesn't take blinkers to see that.

 

[FoxCovert]

Listened to the game on 5live extra. From what i heard we did not turn up for the first big game of our run in. Hardly heard mention of King, Wellens and Yukubu so presume we were outplayed in those departments. 1-0 down at half time we could have got something from the game but for first time i would question Svens tactical decisions, with his substitiuions.
Two poor performances now, we got lucky on Friday but not tonight. Overall though i am glad we have Sven rather than Billy Davies or Grayson. They must be disappointed tonight and both teams look like they could bottle it yet .
Lets get behind the team on Saturday and put the pressure on.

 

[FryattFox]

Sadly, the highlight of the evening has been this debate. Which I'm actually quite enjoying.

 

[FoxCovert]

Disappointed Waghorn didn't start tonight after his impact on Friday, not just the goal but his desire and work rate. Also an extra motivation to bury the ghost of last seasons play off disappointment. Vassell has hardly set us alight in recent games.