Derren Brown - Lottery Numbers

[Macky]

I meant in terms of mediia, I know what you're getting at, but I just don't agree with that when it comes to physical activities. You tell stupid people to jump off a cliff to certain death and I still believe they wouldn't do it no matter how much you "suggest" or "condition" them too.

That all depends on the conditions.
Thousands of Japanese civilians did exactly that because they were told that American GIs were evil and would do unspeakable things to them if they they captured them.
The human mind is extremely malleable.

 

[Graz]

I think the thing with the homeless guy on the street was ridiculous... I can't imagine anyone giving a tramp £100, or their shoes... unless they are extremely rich and generous to begin with... I can't see how subtle messages would make someone do that.

However, the thing in the top shop I could believe... the giraffe patterns etc, planting it in her brain... I do think that is plausible.

But... none of that sort of stuff was used in that video anyway! I'm sure there were some people that would've felt they were stuck to their chairs, but very very few. I actually watched the program, thinking he could do it... but expected it to be more hypnosis type of thing. Meh

Still, interesting to watch... even if I am cynical and don't really believe a lot of it.

 

[Macky]

I bet not one person in the country watching that, not one, actually physically got stuck to their chair and couldn't get up.

Of course they weren't physically stuck to their chairs, but I would bet every possession that I have that thousands were mentally stuck to their sofas.

 

[Graz]

Oh, meant to say... I don't see how you can claim conditioning is "pop psychology" and irrelevant now... Conditioning and Behavioural Psychology DOES work, and is still commonly used in a vast number of ways across many different situations... It's a massive part of how children are taught for example, as well as animals. And there's aversion therapy, as well as conditioning that isn't planned as such, and countless other examples that it DOES work.

Suggestablity and subliminal messaging on the other hand, is something completely different.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Of course they weren't physically stuck to their chairs, but I would bet every possession that I have that thousands were mentally stuck to their sofas.

I bet they'll be endless radio phone-ins and newspaper columns asking if people did, so we'll see...

I think the thing with the homeless guy on the street was ridiculous... I can't imagine anyone giving a tramp £100, or their shoes... unless they are extremely rich and generous to begin with... I can't see how subtle messages would make someone do that.

However, the thing in the top shop I could believe... the giraffe patterns etc, planting it in her brain... I do think that is plausible.

Yeah, pretty much same here, the planting of symbols and Brown leading people directly to pick certain things out I can believe, but not doing detrimental acts.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Oh, meant to say... I don't see how you can claim conditioning is "pop psychology" and irrelevant now... Conditioning and Behavioural Psychology DOES work, and is still commonly used in a vast number of ways across many different situations... It's a massive part of how children are taught for example, as well as animals. And there's aversion therapy, as well as conditioning that isn't planned as such, and countless other examples that it DOES work.

True, but we're talking conditioning over weeks and weeks and repitition and liminal known changes, I meant that sublimminal meaning and advertising in a one minute video or things flashing up on screens making you do stuff without knowing.

 

[Macky]

the planting of symbols and Brown leading people directly to pick certain things out I can believe, but not doing detrimental acts.

What 'detrimental' acts did he have them do?

 

[Profondo Rosso]

What 'detrimental' acts did he have them do?

Losing control of body parts and muscles, giving £100 and your shoes to street beggers, in the past he has done it to just give him money on the street and get betting shops to pay out on losing tickets etc.

 

[Macky]

Losing control of body parts and muscles, giving £100 and your shoes to street beggers, in the past he has done it to just give him money on the street and get betting shops to pay out on losing tickets etc.

None of that is 'detrimental', in fact you could argue that it's an appealing, altruistic thing for them to do.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

None of that is 'detrimental', in fact you could argue that it's an appealing, altruistic thing for them to do.

Well if they think giving money away is altruisitic then they really are stupid. :icon_lol:

 

[Graz]

None of that is 'detrimental', in fact you could argue that it's an appealing, altruistic thing for them to do.

But giving someone you don't know £100 of your own money, or your socks and trainers and walking home bare foot, IS detrimental to that person.... how is it not?

Yes, altruistic, and yes appealing to them... but it is still detrimental to that person.

Ironically, I AM stuck to my chair having read this post (and a article on the Guardian website about the show).... My leg has got pins and needles and completely gone to sleep, and I can't stand up :icon_lol:

 

[Macky]

Well if they think giving money away is altruisitic then they really are stupid. :icon_lol:

Exactly :icon_razz
Most people are truly thick as ****, they prove it every day to me. Or should that be 'proove'?
10 years ago I would've agreed with you, I think I'm just world weary in my old(ish) age.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Exactly :icon_razz
Most people are truly thick as ****, they prove it every day to me. Or should that be 'proove'?
10 years ago I would've agreed with you, I think I'm just world weary in my old(ish) age.

Well, I guess the whole point of these shows is to get the debate and interest going on how he does these things, so it gets people watching, so worked it that respect. :icon_wink

And i never denied that people aren't stupid and sheeplike idiots, you only have to walk 100yards down the street and you'll usually see an example of that.

 

[Macky]

But giving someone you don't know £100 of your own money, or your socks and trainers and walking home bare foot, IS detrimental to that person.... how is it not?

You've answered your own question Graz

Yes, altruistic, and yes appealing to them... but it is still detrimental to that person.

 

[Graz]

Still, no one would actually do that without having a better reason than "Oooh, I'll feel good about myself if I do this"

I don't believe it.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Still, no one would actually do that without having a better reason than "Oooh, I'll feel good about myself if I do this"

I don't believe it.

Many people believe true altruism doesn't exist for that exact reason, because whenever you seem to be doing an apparently selfless act of genorosity, it's always just to make yourself feel good, or to stop yourself feeling guilty. Even pushing someone out of the way of a moving vehicle is often said to happen because you know the guilt you would be ladened with for the rest of your life.

 

[Macky]

Still, no one would actually do that without having a better reason than "Oooh, I'll feel good about myself if I do this"

I don't believe it.

Well, I agree that it isn't that simple. But I definitely believe that people are that suggestible. Absolutely, without a doubt.

 

[Graz]

Many people believe true altruism doesn't exist for that exact reason, because whenever you seem to be doing an apparently selfless act of genorosity, it's always just to make yourself feel good, or to stop yourself feeling guilty. Even pushing someone out of the way of a moving vehicle is often said to happen because you know the guilt you would be ladened with for the rest of your life.

From an evolutionary perspective, altruism only appears in certain forms, and those are to in some way benefit the person performing the apparent altruistic act. Reciprocal altruism (I'll scratch my back, you scratch yours), biological/kin altruism (where it's for the good of your genes, even if not necessarily you), unknowing altruism (parasitic, like with cuckoos... the individual doesn't realise they're being altruistic)... aaaand another one I can't remember.

But none of them say about making yourself feel good. I still believe that the examples you gave are altrustic... the feeling good about doing it/avoiding the guilt isn't so much the reason FOR doing it, but something that comes out of it.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

From an evolutionary perspective, altruism only appears in certain forms, and those are to in some way benefit the person performing the apparent altruistic act. Reciprocal altruism (I'll scratch my back, you scratch yours), biological/kin altruism (where it's for the good of your genes, even if not necessarily you), unknowing altruism (parasitic, like with cuckoos... the individual doesn't realise they're being altruistic)... aaaand another one I can't remember.

But none of them say about making yourself feel good. I still believe that the examples you gave are altrustic... the feeling good about doing it/avoiding the guilt isn't so much the reason FOR doing it, but something that comes out of it.

It depends on your definition I guess, but I suppose if you were to wire it down to doing something selflless with no benefits to you whatsoever be they emotional, physical or evoloutionary, I find it hard to imagine it exisiting as a true concept.

 

[Macky]

It depends on your definition I guess, but I suppose if you were to wire it down to doing something selflless with no benefits to you whatsoever be they emotional, physical or evoloutionary, I find it hard to imagine it exisiting as a true concept.

So, unless it exists on no level whatsoever, it doesn't exist at all?
eh?