How Good Actually Is Our Current Squad?

[Profondo Rosso]

Worth a thread of it's own I feel since it keeps coming up in other discussions. Keep hearing people say we have an excellent Championship squad, or one of the very best in this division etc. etc., but do we really? Because so far all I've see is a very average Championship side and I think people are blinded by the transfer fees and glamour of SGE.

IMO, we only have two players who I would consider "top Championship players" and they are Schmeichel and Nugent.

The midfield, to me, is extremely mediocre and has too many workhorses and not enough creative players in it.

The defence, well I like Bamba, but he can be costly at the same time. Reading fans told us Mills was an inconsistent and average Championship defender, to which some on here wrote them off as being bitter, but so far it seems they were telling the truth on that one. Peltier started really well, but seems to have gone off the boil the last 4 or 5 games, jury's still out on him for me. Konchesky is solid, but inconsistant.

People talk about strength in depth, but I don't believe we have it really. Pantsil and SSL simply aren't good enough, back up or not. The midfield back up is all a load of "meh" and as for the strikers, Schlupp has potential, but that's all it is right now. Vassell is decent, but nothing earth shattering and Weale is Weale.

 

[SwedeFox]

I'd say on a good day our squad is cabable of doing things that we haven't seen in a few years, which means playing pretty football too. Perhaps people are a bit blinded by these days when everything comes together, and think we're better than we really are. Football, after all, is not about how good you are on your great days but on your worst (that's a actually a nice aphorism just there, I'm sure a lot of people have said it before me though).

So in terms of consistency you're probably right.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

The majority of our squad is proven at Championship level and some beyond that.

Schmeichel - one of the best keepers in the division - should easily cut in the Prem.
Weale - decent back up at championship level
pantsil & knochesky - both proven in premiership and europe
bamba - very composed, will cut it in the prem IMO - prone to a few mistakes but nobody is fool proof
mills - looks solid enough, committed defend, IMO under a good manager he will be good enough for prem
peltier - again committed and not bad going forward either - seems to have made the step up from league one well - lets not forget its his first season in the championship
Wellens - we know he has been an integral part of a play off side under Pearson, so proven at this level and IMo capable of premiership footy
King - likewise
Gallagher - Again plenty of experience at this level and we know he is good enough to be in a play off chasing side
Danns - Has drawn plaudits for his performances at this level for Palace, though I suspect we have still yet to see the best of him - jury's still out for me on this one.
Dyer - Again, similar to Wellens and King, we know the guy can be great at this level but is a bit inconsistent. Generally seems to be best used off the bench as an impact player against tired legs.
Fernandes - energetic, combative midfielder with experience in the Prem and internationally as well as in the French top division.
Nugent - Once one of the best up and coming talents in English football, have been really impressed with him, definately good enough for the Prem IMO and has experience there
Howard - proven at this level and gives us another option, also has prem experience
Vassell - again plenty of prem experience, and experience in international football - has been good, will be a good squad player to have in the Prem
SSL - Again, not sure about this one. Is apparently great for Northern Ireland but I've not been very impressed with what he has done for us so far.
Beckford - Has been poor in his short time at Leicester so far but has done well last season with Everton in the Prem and has been prolific in league one with leeds on numerous occasions - needs more time before we rule him out.
Tunchev - Solid, composed, I think he'd be a good player to have in the Prem too if fit
Berner - Experienced, solid left back, again good to have around and no bad player to have in a prem squad IMO
Schlupp - Not seen enough to say one way or the other whether he's good enough for this level, I suspect he isn't YET but there are signs he could be a good player in the future.

What confuses me is when you say the midfield isn't nearly as good as under Pearson - it's practically the same with improved additions IMO! King, Gally and Wellens were all everpresent under Pearson along with Oakley (who many fans were criticising during Pearson's Championhip season). Defensively, you might have a point, but personally I think the difference in defence is more down to the difference in managers we have had since Pearson. Pearson obviously puts out a well organised team whereas both Sousa and particularly Sven like the pure football approach with offensive full backs. We do have a far better first choice keeper now and I personally think that we have a POTENTIALLY good defence, i.e. good individuals that aren't really playing as a unit. Hopefully the right manager can sort that. Offensively I think we are better off, we now have a potential match winner in Nugent.

 

[East Anglia Fox]

I've sometimes thought the same thing. People, perhaps understandably, are blinded not only by the transfer fees but also all the hype that has developed about us.

Vassell is kind of quite good, but hardly ever gets into proper scoring positions. Let's face it, he's unlikely to ever score in double figures, even in this division.

 

[City Fan]

We have a squad made of very good players, but not necessary a very good team.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

The majority of our squad is proven at Championship level and some beyond that.

Schmeichel - one of the best keepers in the division - should easily cut in the Prem.
Weale - decent back up at championship level
pantsil & knochesky - both proven in premiership and europe
bamba - very composed, will cut it in the prem IMO - prone to a few mistakes but nobody is fool proof
mills - looks solid enough, committed defend, IMO under a good manager he will be good enough for prem
peltier - again committed and not bad going forward either - seems to have made the step up from league one well - lets not forget its his first season in the championship
Wellens - we know he has been an integral part of a play off side under Pearson, so proven at this level and IMo capable of premiership footy
King - likewise
Gallagher - Again plenty of experience at this level and we know he is good enough to be in a play off chasing side
Danns - Has drawn plaudits for his performances at this level for Palace, though I suspect we have still yet to see the best of him - jury's still out for me on this one.
Dyer - Again, similar to Wellens and King, we know the guy can be great at this level but is a bit inconsistent. Generally seems to be best used off the bench as an impact player against tired legs.
Fernandes - energetic, combative midfielder with experience in the Prem and internationally as well as in the French top division.
Nugent - Once one of the best up and coming talents in English football, have been really impressed with him, definately good enough for the Prem IMO and has experience there
Howard - proven at this level and gives us another option, also has prem experience
Vassell - again plenty of prem experience, and experience in international football - has been good, will be a good squad player to have in the Prem
SSL - Again, not sure about this one. Is apparently great for Northern Ireland but I've not been very impressed with what he has done for us so far.
Beckford - Has been poor in his short time at Leicester so far but has done well last season with Everton in the Prem and has been prolific in league one with leeds on numerous occasions - needs more time before we rule him out.
Tunchev - Solid, composed, I think he'd be a good player to have in the Prem too if fit
Berner - Experienced, solid left back, again good to have around and no bad player to have in a prem squad IMO
Schlupp - Not seen enough to say one way or the other whether he's good enough for this level, I suspect he isn't YET but there are signs he could be a good player in the future.

What confuses me is when you say the midfield isn't nearly as good as under Pearson - it's practically the same with improved additions IMO! King, Gally and Wellens were all everpresent under Pearson along with Oakley (who many fans were criticising during Pearson's Championhip season). Defensively, you might have a point, but personally I think the difference in defence is more down to the difference in managers we have had since Pearson. Pearson obviously puts out a well organised team whereas both Sousa and particularly Sven like the pure football approach with offensive full backs. We do have a far better first choice keeper now and I personally think that we have a POTENTIALLY good defence, i.e. good individuals that aren't really playing as a unit. Hopefully the right manager can sort that. Offensively I think we are better off, we now have a potential match winner in Nugent.

I never said the midfield isn't nearly as good under Pearson, I said the defence isn't nearly as good, the midfield is about the same. I don't think the players who have been added to that midfield have really improved it that much, they're all about on the same level.

What you are saying about proven in the Championship and beyond is another thing that blinds people imo, you say Konchesky, Vassell, Pantsil etc. are proven in Europe, but they're really not that great, are they? It just shows that average Championship players can still be solid PL players imo. I remember a Middlebrough fan on another board saying he was surprised about how these players who looked solid players in the Prem still looked no more than solid in the Championship and certainly weren't going to win promotion for them any time soon.

 

[East Anglia Fox]

Nugent - Once one of the best up and coming talents in English football, have been really impressed with him, definately good enough for the Prem IMO and has experience there

What on Earth makes you think this?

People go on about 'experience in the Premier League' like it's such an amazing asset. Trevor Benjamin has experience in the Premier League...

Look at some of Norwich's players like Anthony Pilkington and Steve Morison. They have no experience in the PL but I'm sure Norwich fans would rather have them than many players that do have experience in the PL.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I've sometimes thought the same thing. People, perhaps understandably, are blinded not only by the transfer fees but also all the hype that has developed about us.

Vassell is kind of quite good, but hardly ever gets into proper scoring positions. Let's face it, he's unlikely to ever score in double figures, even in this division.

With respect, I think we all knew Vassell has never been a prolific goalscorer when we signed him. Performance wise he has been good.

My personal opinion is that Sven bought in some good or very good players but simply didn't get us playing well enough. Any fan would look at us and say we should be doing better with the squad we have at our disposal and Sven himself admitted to that, and it's obviously the reason he was moved on. You look at the players we let go compared with the players we brought in and you would surely say we have a stronger squad now. Prof will say I'm 'being blinded by countless millions spent' but you could reverse that and say maybe your are being blinded by 'underachievement'. As far as I can tell we have improved on a squad that was good enough to make the Championship play offs and our current underachievement is really down to having managers that haven't been up to the task rather than having a squad that isn't good enough to be up there...

 

[Profondo Rosso]

What on Earth makes you think this?

People go on about 'experience in the Premier League' like it's such an amazing asset. Trevor Benjamin has experience in the Premier League...

Look at some of Norwich's players like Anthony Pilkington and Steve Morison. They have no experience in the PL but I'm sure Norwich fans would rather have them than many players that do have experience in the PL.

Pretty much what I was getting at. I think there's a tendency to assume players like Pantsil, Vassell, Beckford and Konchesky are good players because they've got PL experience, but they were never more than average players in mid-table teams and there's an assumption that because they played in mid-table teams it means they are too good for the Championship, but I don't think that's the case at all. I think they are just average players who fitted in well and they're not going to tear the Championship up just because they played in mid-table PL sides, to me they just look like average players in the Championship as well, who just did a job in the PL.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Prof will say I'm 'being blinded by countless millions spent' but you could reverse that and say maybe your are being blinded by 'underachievement'. As far as I can tell we have improved on a squad that was good enough to make the Championship play offs and our current underachievement is really down to having managers that haven't been up to the task rather than having a squad that isn't good enough to be up there...

I'm basing it on what I've seen of our side so far and that is that I don't think we have more than an average side.

"Underachievement" is based on expectations, which came about because of our spending more than our squad.

Maybe we aren't getting the best out of our players but how can we actually know that until we've seen the best? For all we know John Pantsil and Jermaine Beckford could be absolute geniuses we just haven't seen the best out of, yes, that is true, but surely we could say that about any player in the world then? What benchmark do you have to suggest that they are better than what they've shown? It seems to be simply "that they were average players in mid-table PL sides so must be too good for the Championship," which imo is a rather simplistic way of looking at things as average Championship players can quite easily forge decent PL careers (we only have to look at Richard Stearman to know this and surely we've worked out this is also the case with Vassell, who actually played international football to boot, by now). From what I've seen of both Pantsil and Beckford they are extremely mediocre players.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I never said the midfield isn't nearly as good under Pearson, I said the defence isn't nearly as good, the midfield is about the same. I don't think the players who have been added to that midfield have really improved it that much, they're all about on the same level.

What you are saying about proven in the Championship and beyond is another thing that blinds people imo, you say Konchesky, Vassell, Pantsil etc. are proven in Europe, but they're really not that great, are they? It just shows that average Championship players can still be solid PL players imo. I remember a Middlebrough fan on another board saying he was surprised about how these players who looked solid players in the Prem still looked no more than solid in the Championship and certainly weren't going to win promotion for them any time soon.

This goes to illustrate my point about the key factor being the manager. You can point to Jack Hobbs as another example. It also proves that the players in questions have been good enough for a higher level of football, it's down to the manager to get them playing at that standard. Logic says that if they are good enough for regular European competition they should be good enough for the Championship. It's not quite as simple as that of course but I it shows what they are capable of under the right manager.

What on Earth makes you think this?

People go on about 'experience in the Premier League' like it's such an amazing asset. Trevor Benjamin has experience in the Premier League...

Look at some of Norwich's players like Anthony Pilkington and Steve Morison. They have no experience in the PL but I'm sure Norwich fans would rather have them than many players that do have experience in the PL.

Opinion makes me think this. If you don't think so then fine. I think you are reading too much into what was a very brief comment. I didn't say Peltier was good enough for the Prem though I suspect from what I've seen of him that he could cut it there. I don't really need to look at Norwich either, we have a few at Leicester who haven't had Premiership experience but I think would probably be good enough there. I'm thinking of players like Bamba and Tunchev here.

Again I reiterate my belief that the manager is the key, a truly good manager will get even an average team to perform beyond expectation. Equally a manager who isn't up to the task will not be able to rely on his team to bail him out with good results week in week out.

 

[spionfox]

For all we know John Pantsil and Jermaine Beckford could be absolute geniuses we just haven't seen the best out of, yes, that is true, but surely we could say that about any player in the world then?

We all knew that Junior Lewis's passport said Brazil.

 

[spionfox]

Again I reiterate my belief that the manager is the key, a truly good manager will get even an average team to perform beyond expectation.

Well O'Neill did that once before of course.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I'm basing it on what I've seen of our side so far and that is that I don't think we have more than an average side.

"Underachievement" is based on expectations, which came about because of our spending more than our squad.

Maybe we aren't getting the best out of our players but how can we actually know that until we've seen the best? For all we know John Pantsil and Jermaine Beckford could be absolute geniuses we just haven't seen the best out of, yes, that is true, but surely we could say that about any player in the world then? What benchmark do you have to suggest that they are better than what they've shown? It seems to be simply "that they were average players in mid-table PL sides so must be too good for the Championship," which imo is a rather simplistic way of looking at things as average Championship players can quite easily forge decent PL careers (we only have to look at Richard Stearman to know this and surely we've worked out this is also the case with Vassell, who actually played international football to boot, by now). From what I've seen of both Pantsil and Beckford they are extremely mediocre players.

You know as well I as I do that we have put together some really good performances under Sven but on a far too infrequent basis. I also think it's a complete understatment to suggest that Konchesky and Pantsil have been average players in mid table PL sides when they were an integral part of a Fulham team that finished high enough in the league to reach the europa league and get to the final in that competition to boot..

Neither Pantsil or Beckford have been here particularly long and arguably it would be pretty unfair to write them off completely at this stage. The ability is there, they have both proven this at other clubs and I would hope that we will get the right manager in who can get them all playing to the best of their ability once more.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

This goes to illustrate my point about the key factor being the manager. You can point to Jack Hobbs as another example. It also proves that the players in questions have been good enough for a higher level of football, it's down to the manager to get them playing at that standard. Logic says that if they are good enough for regular European competition they should be good enough for the Championship. It's not quite as simple as that of course but I it shows what they are capable of under the right manager.

Good enough for the Championship, yes, but not necessarily more than average players in the Championship. We could have any manager in the world, you can't improve Konchesky's crossing by motivation, you can't stop Pantsil being error prone either (Fulham and West Ham fans both said he was at PL level anyway), you can't suddenly start Vassell scoring. Yes, these players have proven to be decent PL players who have played in Europe and internationally, but that doesn't mean they are players who will take the Championship by storm, from what I've seen these players are simply what I would call "cog" players. Decent players who fit in and do a job, but they're not the kind of players who get you promoted, this is, imo what our side is full of.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

You know as well I as I do that we have put together some really good performances under Sven but on a far too infrequent basis. I also think it's a complete understatment to suggest that Konchesky and Pantsil have been average players in mid table PL sides when they were an integral part of a Fulham team that finished high enough in the league to reach the europa league and get to the final in that competition to boot..

Neither Pantsil or Beckford have been here particularly long and arguably it would be pretty unfair to write them off completely at this stage. The ability is there, they have both proven this at other clubs and I would hope that we will get the right manager in who can get them all playing to the best of their ability once more.

You're right, when SGE first came in we played some of the best football I've ever seen us play, but last year's team was very different to this year's and other than the Derby game and the first half at Southampton we haven't really shown much, have we?

Konchesky and Pantsil were hardly the players that got Fulham where they were though were they? Pantsil was well known for being error prone in fact and Konchesky has always just been what he is now, a solid player in the PL with an incosistant cross on him.

I'm not writing Beckford or Pantsil of at all, but neither am I just saying they are great players who are "underperforming" simply because they were decent PL players.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

You're right, when SGE first came in we played some of the best football I've ever seen us play, but last year's team was very different to this year's and other than the Derby game and the first half at Southampton we haven't really shown much, have we?

Konchesky and Pantsil were hardly the players that got Fulham where they were though were they? Pantsil was well known for being error prone in fact and Konchesky has always just been what he is now, a solid player in the PL with an incosistant cross on him.

I'm not writing Beckford or Pantsil of at all, but neither am I just saying they are great players who are "underperforming" simply because they were decent PL players.

I think we are going to have to simply agree to disagree, if Pantsil and Konch were as bad as you make out I'm sure they'd have been dropped at some point rather than playing the majority of that relatively successful Fulham season. Also understand that I'm not saying we are underperforming on the basis that we have a team packed with Premier League experience. I'm saying we are underperforming because we have been playing under a manager who has not been up to the task. The premier league experience is just a reference point for what certain players are proven capable of. I've not been particularly impressed by Konchesky or Pantsil either at this moment in time but I do think they are capable of better, and this is because of their proven premiership/ european experience. It's a subtle difference.

As I say, the management or more to the point in our case - the mismanagement is the real driving factor behind whether we will be successful or not. Personally as you have no doubt picked up by now, I think that our squad is very good for this level and we should be and probably would be doing better under a better manager. If only we'd stuck with Pearson in the first place we might well be doing better right now. Still we're in this situation where we are after a new man again. He will have a good squad, good foundations at the club and good backing from good owners who I believe will be very supportive and not in the least bit interfereing as they have shown to Sven previously. I think bringing Pearson back wouldn't be the right choice, particularly as we are now after a shorter term solution. Really hope we get MON in. Promotion can never be guaranteed but MON is as close as you can get in such a short time frame as far as I'm concerned. Even if it's just for a short term contract as some have alluded to I think it's the best option at this stage.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

I think we are going to have to simply agree to disagree, if Pantsil and Konch were as bad as you make out I'm sure they'd have been dropped at some point rather than playing the majority of that relatively successful Fulham season. Also understand that I'm not saying we are underperforming on the basis that we have a team packed with Premier League experience. I'm saying we are underperforming because we have been playing under a manager who has not been up to the task. The premier league experience is just a reference point for what certain players are proven capable of. I've not been particularly impressed by Konchesky or Pantsil either at this moment in time but I do think they are capable of better, and this is because of their proven premiership/ european experience. It's a subtle difference.

As I say, the management or more to the point in our case - the mismanagement is the real driving factor behind whether we will be successful or not. Personally as you have no doubt picked up by now, I think that our squad is very good for this level and we should be and probably would be doing better under a better manager. If only we'd stuck with Pearson in the first place we might well be doing better right now. Still we're in this situation where we are after a new man again. He will have a good squad, good foundations at the club and good backing from good owners who I believe will be very supportive and not in the least bit interfereing as they have shown to Sven previously. I think bringing Pearson back wouldn't be the right choice, particularly as we are now after a shorter term solution. Really hope we get MON in. Promotion can never be guaranteed but MON is as close as you can get in such a short time frame as far as I'm concerned. Even if it's just for a short term contract as some have alluded to I think it's the best option at this stage.

Where have I made out Konchesky or Pantsil were bad players? I haven't (and fwiw, Pantsil was dropped and spend most of that season as second fiddle to Chris Baird).

Fair enough, it seems we got our wires crossed with the PL experience if you're not using that as the reason you think they are underperforming, but mismanagement is only a guesstimate really, isn't it? We have no idea about what goes on at the training ground or indeed how good these players can be. You can have any manager in the world, I don't think you could get Konchesky to improve his crossing or Pantsil to not go walkabouts at times, that's just what players they are and always have been as far as I can tell, I don't think management can change that.

I'm just going on what I've seen of these players so far and imo our squad is pretty average. That could well be a case of mismanagement and these players underperforming as you say, but there's no way of knowing that til we've seen them play that well consistently and I think it's silly to be putting pressure on the new manager saying "we have an excellent squad here, the manager should be able to come in and do well" with this squad, because we've not really seen this squad show they are good enough except in 1 1/2 games really, so to me it just seems like more guesswork that we're underperforming than anything.

 

[OldGit]

Where have I made out Konchesky or Pantsil were bad players? I haven't (and fwiw, Pantsil was dropped and spend most of that season as second fiddle to Chris Baird).

Fair enough, it seems we got our wires crossed with the PL experience if you're not using that as the reason you think they are underperforming, but mismanagement is only a guesstimate really, isn't it? We have no idea about what goes on at the training ground or indeed how good these players can be. You can have any manager in the world, I don't think you could get Konchesky to improve his crossing or Pantsil to not go walkabouts at times, that's just what players they are and always have been as far as I can tell, I don't think management can change that.

I'm just going on what I've seen of these players so far and imo our squad is pretty average. That could well be a case of mismanagement and these players underperforming as you say, but there's no way of knowing that til we've seen them play that well consistently and I think it's silly to be putting pressure on the new manager saying "we have an excellent squad here, the manager should be able to come in and do well" with this squad, because we've not really seen this squad show they are good enough except in 1 1/2 games really, so to me it just seems like more guesswork that we're underperforming than anything.

That was the season afterwards under Mark Hughes. Pantsil was a regular (apart from injuries and suspension) during the Europa Cup season, and a real favourite of the Fulham fans. Mostly his performances were good, though he was prone to the occasional spectacular gaffe, mostly the result of over-enthusiasm. As were most of his too-frequent yellow cards. Exactly why he fell out of favour with Hughes (and Jol, seemingly) is unclear, but seems to be over off-field issues - these things so often are.

With Konchesky, who I still rate as mostly OK, I think it's just a matter of being past his best. His attacking play and crossing were perhaps his greatest asset at Fulham.

 

[From Gradel to Grave]

For seemingly psychological reasons we have been inconsistent this year as a team. Every player (including Schmeichel) has been inconsistent and it is unfair to label individuals with collective sins.

This season we have been up for matches against top teams and derby matches but not when a top 6 place is up for grabs. We have only had glimpses of what we can achieve which is mouth watering.