Off Field Management

[Macky]

My personal opinion is that standing only areas are utterly unsafe, even more so than standing in seated areas.

What are you basing this personal opinion on? It appears to be nonsensical, so I'm hoping that you have actually based it on something reasonable and tangible. Or have you just conjured it from your imagination?

 

[Jeff]

What are you basing this personal opinion on? It appears to be nonsensical, so I'm hoping that you have actually based it on something reasonable and tangible. Or have you just conjured it from your imagination?

I'm sure a lot of younger people have never stood at a match, they've just read about what happened at Hillsborough and think all terraces are like that.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I'm sure a lot of younger people have never stood at a match, they've just read about what happened at Hillsborough and think all terraces are like that.

Firstly I'm not really that young, 27. Secondly although I might have been just a whipper snapper and not old enough to experience the days when standing areas were a regular thing in the game it just strikes me as common sense that attitudes to health and safety and and the rules and regulations that enforce them should evolve as a direct result of these incidents. It can be the same in other walks of life such as companies introducing new health and safety practices as a result of an employee injuring themselves in some way or other.

 

[Jeff]

Firstly I'm not really that young, 27.

I didn't say young. I said younger. Younger than the likes of me and Macky who went to games when you could stand at Filbert Street.

it just strikes me as common sense that attitudes to health and safety and and the rules and regulations that enforce them should evolve as a direct result of these incidents.

Things should have changed, most grounds were in really poor condition in the eighties.

But the changes that were made were a total over-reaction. The answer to unsafe terracing was to make it safe and use it safely, not to get rid of it completely. If standing really is unsafe you wouldn't be allowed to do it at lower division matches, rugby, gigs etc.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

Things should have changed, most grounds were in really poor condition in the eighties.

But the changes that were made were a total over-reaction. The answer to unsafe terracing was to make it safe and use it safely, not to get rid of it completely. If standing really is unsafe you wouldn't be allowed to do it at lower division matches, rugby, gigs etc.

Maybe the argument with lower division matches is that you are dealing with much lower volumes of people so the risk isn't nearly as big. I have been to my fair share of gigs and I always prefer to stand there due to closer proximity to the stage, at gigs standing areas are all on a relatively level plain, so there is no risk of people falling down into groups of other people if you get excessively drunk etc. I have also never been closed in by high walls/railings whilst standing at a big gig. Looking back, I'd say standing at gigs is potentially dangerous, but maybe it will take a massive high profile incident like Hillsborough to bring about changes with the event organisers that ruin these things. If there is ever a mass rush to get out for any reason then standing areas are dangerous IMO, whether they be at gigs, in football stadiums, rugby stadiums or wherever.

 

[Jeff]

Maybe the argument with lower division matches is that you are dealing with much lower volumes of people so the risk isn't nearly as big.

That argument makes no sense.

If a terrace holding 1,000 people is safe in League Two, the same terrace is safe in the Premier League.

It might be dangerous if you have huge steep terraces like we used to have. Not many people are calling for the return of those days.

at gigs standing areas are all on a relatively level plain, so there is no risk of people falling down into groups of other people if you get excessively drunk etc.

Again, that argument makes no sense, based on what you said previously.
Safe football terraces are relatively shallow, so the falling risk isn't too great. You think it's safer to stand in seating areas, where there's much further to fall - and a seat in front to fall over.

I have also never been closed in by high walls/railings whilst standing at a big gig.

What makes you think there will be high walls?

If there is ever a mass rush to get out for any reason then standing areas are dangerous IMO

Why?
It's much quicker to evacuate a standing area. If you need to evacuate a terrace quickly, everyone can easily walk forwards onto the pitch. All done in a few seconds. If you're in a seat you have to queue up while everyone takes their turn to get to the steps, resulting in a funnel effect that makes a crush more likely, or clamber over seats, which is dangerous. If there's a panic, like a fire or a bomb scare, people are much more likely to get hurt if they're trying to get out of a seating area.

 

[Motown Fox]

If you look at all the disasters with regard to football stadiums you can see with hindsight why each of them had happened.
Hillsborough -The fact that too many fans were let into an area too small to accommodate them and could not escape as the fences kept them in.
The Bradford fire was an accident waiting to happen with a wooden stand.
Heysel was a very poor stadium which was crumbling away well before that fateful night and add to that the stupid ticket allocation of an area for "neutral fans"* which lit a powderkeg that had been brewing before the game as Liverpool and Juve fans had clashed.
The large exit stairway at the Rangers -Celtic game was possibly another accident waiting to happen.

I remember being in such a "neutral fans"* area for the 1982 F A Cup Semi-Final at Villa Park which was mixed City and Spurs fans and there were fights then (before the game and in the 1st half) and would probably have been more had we played better and given them a game in the 2nd half.

I agree with Jeff I can not see why we can not have a section of each ground that can be standing in a well planned area where fans can go if they wish.

I see that this is my 5000th post

 

[beaumontfox]

I think some folk think Mr.Barclay is a bit of a hypocrite with his attitude towards anything to do with the fans considering what he 'allegedly' got up to himself back in the day. He isn't very approachable at all in regards to certain things, and imo I've known times where he seemed to enjoy making things as difficult as possible(which in turn led to others at the club being spoke to in the hope that a situation would be rectified)
Yes,rules are rules. But you cannot treat every incident in exactly the same way when there are other factors and statements contradicting the info you have been given by others.

He's certainly not as nice as Andrew Neville that's for sure.

 

[Mawsley]

. I have been to my fair share of gigs and I always prefer to stand there due to closer proximity to the stage, at gigs standing areas are all on a relatively level plain, so there is no risk of people falling down into groups of other people if you get excessively drunk etc

Gigs? Death at gigs?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=concert+death&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safariIt's almost a certainty.

I'm moved to kill myself simply hearing women talk about Take That

 

[spionfox]

I am so traditionally minded my middle names are National Trust

David National Trust Gwilliam.

I can imagine that being spoken in the style of 'Norman Stanley Fletcher' from Porridge!

 

[David Gwilliam]

David National Trust Gwilliam.

I can imagine that being spoken in the style of 'Norman Stanley Fletcher' from Porridge!

An American told me that my speaking sryle was "Just like James Mason" which pleased me until a friend pointed out that James Mason often played Nazis.

I think some folk think Mr.Barclay is a bit of a hypocrite with his attitude towards anything to do with the fans considering what he 'allegedly' got up to himself back in the day. He isn't very approachable at all in regards to certain things, and imo I've known times where he seemed to enjoy making things as difficult as possible(which in turn led to others at the club being spoke to in the hope that a situation would be rectified)
Yes,rules are rules. But you cannot treat every incident in exactly the same way when there are other factors and statements contradicting the info you have been given by others.

He's certainly not as nice as Andrew Neville that's for sure.

Thank you Beaumont. That seems to be the best reason so far for disliking Mr Barclay. One thing that has become clear in the last couple of weeks is that Andrew Neville is very highly regarded.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

That argument makes no sense.

If a terrace holding 1,000 people is safe in League Two, the same terrace is safe in the Premier League.

It might be dangerous if you have huge steep terraces like we used to have. Not many people are calling for the return of those days.




Again, that argument makes no sense, based on what you said previously.
Safe football terraces are relatively shallow, so the falling risk isn't too great. You think it's safer to stand in seating areas, where there's much further to fall - and a seat in front to fall over.




What makes you think there will be high walls?




Why?
It's much quicker to evacuate a standing area. If you need to evacuate a terrace quickly, everyone can easily walk forwards onto the pitch. All done in a few seconds. If you're in a seat you have to queue up while everyone takes their turn to get to the steps, resulting in a funnel effect that makes a crush more likely, or clamber over seats, which is dangerous. If there's a panic, like a fire or a bomb scare, people are much more likely to get hurt if they're trying to get out of a seating area.

I disagree, IMO the funnel effect caused by seating areas is actually a positive rather than a negative and is likely why seated areas are considered safer by those in the know. The space is he issue, seating areas force space, they automatically split up the crowd even in the event of a mass exodus/ evacuation, in a standing area you are starved of space when everyone around you is trying to get out as well. I've been at many Bon Jovi concerts and whilst exiting from the standing area at the end of the show, along with thousands of other people, you do often feel a little claustrophobic and sometimes almost feel as though the traffic is moving you rather than you moving with the traffic. In the same situation if there is ever a mad rush to get out it's just an accident waiting to happen.

When I was referring to falling in standing areas I was obviously referring to sloped terraces. If you are wanting to see flat level standing areas I can't really see the attraction at a football game, flat level standing is obviously going to cause alot of people to have practically no view. This happens at most concerts I have ever been to, however unlike at a concert where the focal point (the stage) is above ground level, the playing surface of a football pitch isn't so the view of a football match at a flat level standing area is going to be terrible. Aside from the fact that I can't see the attraction, I still think they are unsafe, again purely down to the space issue.

At th end of the day you can argue that everything is potentially unsafe but I agree with the authorities that standing areas are more potentially unsafe than seating areas, and I'd say history has proven this. Also just because other authorities deem standing areas to be safe at the present time, doesn't mean that's necessarily the case. Isn't that like saying 'well, that guy just murdered somebody and got away with it, so it must be ok for me to do it'...?

 

[Jeff]

I disagree, IMO the funnel effect caused by seating areas is actually a positive rather than a negative and is likely why seated areas are considered safer by those in the know. The space is he issue, seating areas force space, they automatically split up the crowd even in the event of a mass exodus/ evacuation, in a standing area you are starved of space when everyone around you is trying to get out as well.

If you need to evacuate a standing area in an emergency, everyone can go on to the pitch. If you have low walls or collapsible barriers at the front there's no funnel effect, it's much quicker and safer.

When I was referring to falling in standing areas I was obviously referring to sloped terraces. If you are wanting to see flat level standing areas I can't really see the attraction

When did I say I wanted to see flat standing areas?
Standing areas with a shallow gradient are safe. You get pushed from behind you just step forwards and the drop is only a few inches.
In a seating area if you get pushed from behind it's a much bigger drop, and there's a seat in front to trip over. Why do you find this so difficult to understand?

I agree with the authorities that standing areas are more potentially unsafe than seating areas, and I'd say history has proven this.

If you're going to use history to 'prove' things, you could also say that the Bradford fire proved that sitting is more dangerous than standing. I can guarantee that fewer would have died if the fire had happened in a standing area.

 

[spionfox]

At th end of the day you can argue that everything is potentially unsafe

Not with Mawsley regarding children left alone abroad!

 

[Macky]

I disagree, IMO the funnel effect caused by seating areas is actually a positive rather than a negative and is likely why seated areas are considered safer by those in the know. The space is he issue, seating areas force space, they automatically split up the crowd even in the event of a mass exodus/ evacuation, in a standing area you are starved of space when everyone around you is trying to get out as well. I've been at many Bon Jovi concerts and whilst exiting from the standing area at the end of the show, along with thousands of other people, you do often feel a little claustrophobic and sometimes almost feel as though the traffic is moving you rather than you moving with the traffic. In the same situation if there is ever a mad rush to get out it's just an accident waiting to happen.

When I was referring to falling in standing areas I was obviously referring to sloped terraces. If you are wanting to see flat level standing areas I can't really see the attraction at a football game, flat level standing is obviously going to cause alot of people to have practically no view. This happens at most concerts I have ever been to, however unlike at a concert where the focal point (the stage) is above ground level, the playing surface of a football pitch isn't so the view of a football match at a flat level standing area is going to be terrible. Aside from the fact that I can't see the attraction, I still think they are unsafe, again purely down to the space issue.

At th end of the day you can argue that everything is potentially unsafe but I agree with the authorities that standing areas are more potentially unsafe than seating areas, and I'd say history has proven this. Also just because other authorities deem standing areas to be safe at the present time, doesn't mean that's necessarily the case. Isn't that like saying 'well, that guy just murdered somebody and got away with it, so it must be ok for me to do it'...?

I haven't time to respond in depth, but in all fairness Shaun, you've displayed that you haven't got the first notion about standing areas or crowds for that matter. Not a clue.

 

[Hazzman]

What are you basing this personal opinion on? It appears to be nonsensical, so I'm hoping that you have actually based it on something reasonable and tangible. Or have you just conjured it from your imagination?

26,000 stand on a terrace every week in Dortmund during the football season. No injuries reported, incredible, hey?

 

[western road]

Everywhere you go is in fact full of the unexpected................ thats why its called accidents unforseen incidents.......... thats life

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I haven't time to respond in depth, but in all fairness Shaun, you've displayed that you haven't got the first notion about standing areas or crowds for that matter. Not a clue.

Shut up Macky, do you think I've never been stood in a standing area of any kind? People who do have a clue and make the decisions obviously feel that standing areas are not as safe as seating areas either and that's all that matters. They are no doubt much better educated in the subject than me, and you, and are in a much better position to make these decsions.

When did I say I wanted to see flat standing areas?

You implied it when you said that nobody wants to see a return of sloped terraces.

Standing areas with a shallow gradient are safe. You get pushed from behind you just step forwards and the drop is only a few inches.
In a seating area if you get pushed from behind it's a much bigger drop, and there's a seat in front to trip over. Why do you find this so difficult to understand?

Well this is just going over old ground again isn't it? I could say, well actually, the seat being there might even STOP you falling or I could say in a standing area there is more likelihood of people tripping over each other due to more restricted space. None of that is certifiable proof of course, but neither is anything you put forward regarding people 'potentially' falling over seats.

I believe a large crowd of people is far more difficult to marshal than one that is split up.

If you're going to use history to 'prove' things, you could also say that the Bradford fire proved that sitting is more dangerous than standing. I can guarantee that fewer would have died if the fire had happened in a standing area.

Regarding the Brentford fire, how does this prove seating was unsafe just because it was in a seating area? The same thing could easily have happened in a standing area. All that proved was that wood catches fire, so it is not a great idea to make stadium seats or what have you out of flammable materials. Just another example of the evolution of the game as a result of past incidents.

 

[spionfox]

Regarding the Brentford fire, how does this prove seating was unsafe just because it was in a seating area? The same thing could easily have happened in a standing area. All that proved was that wood catches fire, so it is not a great idea to make stadium seats or what have you out of flammable materials. Just another example of the evolution of the game as a result of past incidents.

?

 

[Macky]

Shut up Macky, do you think I've never been stood in a standing area of any kind? People who do have a clue and make the decisions obviously feel that standing areas are not as safe as seating areas either and that's all that matters. They are no doubt much better educated in the subject than me, and you, and are in a much better position to make these decsions.

No, why don't you ****ing shut up ****face? Who the **** do you think you are, you festering wankstain? If you seriously think that the people that make these decisions are the most knowledgeable people available in the subject, then you are even more of a ****ing idiot than you obviously are, you ****ing clueless, ignorant prick