ULEZ & The Environment

[LoopisDeLupis]

As I say, it sounds like your mind is made up though, so I’m not sure the report will change that, no matter what it says.

If you’re asking me if, in principle, I agree with a policy like this, even though it doesn’t greatly affect me, then I agree with you I’d like to see some greener policies come in. We rely on our elected officials to make choices as to which of these to pursue, so that’s where we’re at, I guess. If it turns out to be a disaster, then I suspect it’ll turn out badly for him, but this was a policy introduced by a Conservative mayor, backed by a Conservative PM at the time and carried on and expanded by a Labour mayor, so it would seem to be a policy that both main parties support and is therefore likely to continue.

I think Cambs might have a point here.

At times when money is tight for people it shouldn’t really be the priority of a government to chase expensive policies that have negligible net impact on the economy (and damaging it in some cases) without proof there is a significant health risk.

I would rather see us invest billions into renewable energies than forcing Londoners to buy shiny new boxes with lithium batteries in.

 

[camberwell fox]

I think Cambs might have a point here.

At times when money is tight for people it shouldn’t really be the priority of a government to chase expensive policies that have negligible net impact on the economy (and damaging it in some cases) without proof there is a significant health risk.

I would rather see us invest billions into renewable energies than forcing Londoners to buy shiny new boxes with lithium batteries in.

There was a report I read years ago (can’t remember for the life of me where, but it was from a reliable source) that stated that the production and disposal of an electric car battery was far worse than the impact of a diesel car over its liifetune.

 

[pork pie fox]

I think Cambs might have a point here.

At times when money is tight for people it shouldn’t really be the priority of a government to chase expensive policies that have negligible net impact on the economy (and damaging it in some cases) without proof there is a significant health risk.

I would rather see us invest billions into renewable energies than forcing Londoners to buy shiny new boxes with lithium batteries in.

As I say, it’s doesn’t really affect me, but the cold hard reality is that successive mayors have supported this policy and other cities have their own versions (Bath, Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield, from the ones I’ve visited). I’m not saying I agree with it, I’m saying that it’s clearly on the agenda and so until it starts to cost them votes, it’s likely to be continued and even expanded.

 

[LoopisDeLupis]

There was a report I read years ago (can’t remember for the life of me where, but it was from a reliable source) that stated that the production and disposal of an electric car battery was far worse than the impact of a diesel car over its liifetune.

Whilst I like to think I am generally eco-conscious (ish), something about the pace in which the EV revolution is being pushed doesn’t sit right.

Particularly whilst motorsport continues to develop alternative fuels with some success.

I am no conspiracy theorist but why are so many western economies happily pushing industries where only China has a competitive advantage? Particularly one in which the solution has been poorly thought out?

It’s weird. And it stinks.

 

[pork pie fox]

Whilst I like to think I am generally eco-conscious (ish), something about the pace in which the EV revolution is being pushed doesn’t sit right.

Particularly whilst motorsport continues to develop alternative fuels with some success.

I am no conspiracy theorist but why are so many western economies happily pushing industries where only China has a competitive advantage? Particularly one in which the solution has been poorly thought out?

It’s weird. And it stinks.

There was a thing for hydrogen cars a few years ago, but these apparently aren’t as efficient and the infrastructure is harder to install (from what I’ve read), so I guess that’s why they’ve not been pushed as much.

 

[LoopisDeLupis]

There was a thing for hydrogen cars a few years ago, but these apparently aren’t as efficient and the infrastructure is harder to install (from what I’ve read), so I guess that’s why they’ve not been pushed as much.

But in those difficulties there are surely some opportunities for British business, rather than giving up and rolling over to hand the world’s infrastructure straight across to China?

The only competitive electric cars - Chinese
The other ones that are even remotely competitive- either powered by Chinese batteries, or you have to buy from Space Slug AG-12X! which is not preferable

It just feels like it is being handed over very easily. If it is the way forward why are so many of these battery “giga-factories” failing?

 

[pork pie fox]

But in those difficulties there are surely some opportunities for British business, rather than giving up and rolling over to hand the world’s infrastructure straight across to China?

The only competitive electric cars - Chinese
The other ones that are even remotely competitive- either powered by Chinese batteries, or you have to buy from Space Slug AG-12X! which is not preferable

It just feels like it is being handed over very easily. If it is the way forward why are so many of these battery “giga-factories” failing?

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said there, but the reality is that we’re not competitive on a cost basis in large scale manufacturing any more, so we can’t compete. Would I like it to be different? Yes of course I would, but I’m a bit beaten down with it.

My posts on this thread could be seen as a mirror for the apathy thread on LCFC. Would I like some things to be done differently? Of course I would. Am I likely to go out protesting and would it make much difference? Probably not.

I’ve switched more to a “just roll with it” attitude lately and to try to make my own decisions on things, rather than worry about what bigger decisions are being taken. Brexit was probably the killer for me in this instance and when I then see things like the NHS being hammered, homelessness and poverty leading to mass expansion of food banks and such like, I’ve decided to just do what I can, in my own little world and accept that it isn’t going to influence the decision making process where it probably really counts.

Sad, but that’s where it’s at.

 

[Feidlimid]

I live in France and there are emissions controls in some cities here too, and more planned. I read a remark in a paper recently that it would effectively stop rural dwellers from going into cities. In large parts of France, there is no public transport. They need thier old polluting diesel cars; commuting, shopping and the like. They cannot afford to replace with anything cleaner (and certainly not EV) and spend just to keep the old car running. It's almost another class level distinction.

 

[LoopisDeLupis]

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said there, but the reality is that we’re not competitive on a cost basis in large scale manufacturing any more, so we can’t compete. Would I like it to be different? Yes of course I would, but I’m a bit beaten down with it.

My posts on this thread could be seen as a mirror for the apathy thread on LCFC. Would I like some things to be done differently? Of course I would. Am I likely to go out protesting and would it make much difference? Probably not.

I’ve switched more to a “just roll with it” attitude lately and to try to make my own decisions on things, rather than worry about what bigger decisions are being taken. Brexit was probably the killer for me in this instance and when I then see things like the NHS being hammered, homelessness and poverty leading to mass expansion of food banks and such like, I’ve decided to just do what I can, in my own little world and accept that it isn’t going to influence the decision making process where it probably really counts.

Sad, but that’s where it’s at.

The solution to not being competitive is not to give up.

I have always found it completely bizzare that there isn’t more put into the North in terms of manufacturing facilities.

If you are hunting economic growth - which this government claims they are - there’s nowhere better to chase it. More for every pound spent.

 

[Fox Fan]

The solution to not being competitive is not to give up.

I have always found it completely bizzare that there isn’t more put into the North in terms of manufacturing facilities.

If you are hunting economic growth - which this government claims they are - there’s nowhere better to chase it. More for every pound spent.

I'm currently working with a major Government department (albeit only a small cog in the engine) and honestly, it's amazing how poorly run they are.

I generally don't buy into all this deep state stuff that Liz Truss likes to spout, but I do think the standard of our civil service decision making machine is significantly holding this country back.

 

[Feidlimid]

I generally don't buy into all this deep state stuff that Liz Truss likes to spout, but I do think the standard of our civil service decision making machine is significantly holding this country back.

I too believe more in cock up or incompetence (or even tbf simply getting it wrong) than conspiracy.

 

[pork pie fox]

The solution to not being competitive is not to give up.

I have always found it completely bizzare that there isn’t more put into the North in terms of manufacturing facilities.

If you are hunting economic growth - which this government claims they are - there’s nowhere better to chase it. More for every pound spent.

Again, I’m not disputing the principle, but we aren’t going to be able to compete currently with manufacturing costs on a global level. Manufacturing currently is about 8% of our economic output. We're a services industry based economy now, primarily financial services. Sadly, it will take a lot more than little things to turn that around and I say this as someone of Northern heritage, whose family worked in manufacturing up until the 80s.

 

[camberwell fox]

Perhaps electric can gain more short-term and long term money into the economy whereas hydrogen could be ''free to use'' if there was the will to make it so?

My (ex) electric car had a range of about 220 miles, not bad, but as soon as you turned on the heater or air con, this was reduced by 50%.

Great, a £50k where you have to sit inside with your coat on because you car battery isn't sufficiently well designed to enable basic functionality to work and not empty the battery? Progress, bollocks.

 

[LoopisDeLupis]

I'm currently working with a major Government department (albeit only a small cog in the engine) and honestly, it's amazing how poorly run they are.

I generally don't buy into all this deep state stuff that Liz Truss likes to spout, but I do think the standard of our civil service decision making machine is significantly holding this country back.

Ahh, the complexity of government.
Often answers the question of “if we have the highest tax burden for a very long time, where is the money actually going”?

 

[Fox Fan]

Perhaps electric can gain more short-term and long term money into the economy whereas hydrogen could be ''free to use'' if there was the will to make it so?

My (ex) electric car had a range of about 220 miles, not bad, but as soon as you turned on the heater or air con, this was reduced by 50%.

Great, a £50k where you have to sit inside with your coat on because you car battery isn't sufficiently well designed to enable basic functionality to work and not empty the battery? Progress, bollocks.

Might not have worked for you, but the next owner of that car might have only travelled 100 miles a day, had off street parking and therefore access to the super cheap over night tariffs.

The average person in the UK does about 12,000 miles a year - which is 32 miles a day. For the right person, they're an excellent option and personally I wouldn't go back to a ICE vehicle unless I suddenly needed to do more than 250 miles a day consistently.

 

[camberwell fox]

Might not have worked for you, but the next owner of that car might have only travelled 100 miles a day, had off street parking and therefore access to the super cheap over night tariffs.

The average person in the UK does about 12,000 miles a year - which is 32 miles a day. For the right person, they're an excellent option and personally I wouldn't go back to a ICE vehicle unless I suddenly needed to do more than 250 miles a day consistently.

Yep, can completely see that and agree.

My point is though that electric is being touted as good for all, it isn't.

 

[Fox Fan]

Yep, can completely see that and agree.

My point is though that electric is being touted as good for all, it isn't.

If you don't have off street parking and the low tariffs, it's an absolutely ridiculous option. The price of charging at a motorway services (unless it's a Tesla) is the equivalent cost (at least) to putting Petrol in.

That said, some of the new cars coming out have a 450+ mile range. That'll do most people fine and would see me travel from home to Cornwall quite comfortably without stopping.