Who should stay and who should go

[Jeff]

ManCity in particular exploited this well in the second leg.

:icon_conf

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Replay then.

But all night their attacks came from easily playing through balls through into the space behind the defence and leaving Berner and Hobbs for dead.

 

[H T B]

Replay then.

But all night their attacks came from easily playing through balls through into the space behind the defence and leaving Berner and Hobbs for dead.

I'd say that was more to do with Gallagher going off.
Moussa replaced him and Berner, being the more experienced didn't seem to talk to him.

 

[Hazzman]

Where have I claimed the current defence are better? I've said several times in recent weeks we have one of the best attacks in the division, but our current defence and goalkeeper needs sorting. I don't think any of the current defence bar Naughton are particularly up to much defensively.

Hobbs was getting outpaced by attackers. He's simply too slow to play in such a high defensive line. It was clear earlier in this season all teams had to do was knock the ball past him and they'd get past him and have a free run on goal. ManCity in particular exploited this well in the second leg.

You only have to look at the game vs Reading a few weeks back to show how easy it is for a side to get a quick player (Kebe) in the team play long balls over the top and get in behind our defence. It's very easy to exploit a high defensive line with slow players.

I don't think Mee or Bamba will do us that well playing as we do, however the one advantage Bamba and Mee do have over Hobbs though is that they are better passers of the ball, which is obviously more helpful when you play a style which revolves around trying to keep possession.

First of all, you haven't but a lot of said we should be signing Mee.

I am trying to think where that occur tbh - outpaced. Man City were clearly against better players, the problem was Berner. You say that problem was apparent against Man City but they scored only goal in the fashion you described. Hobbs' biggest problem here was communication, I can think of two goals straight away where either a mix-up between the defender or the keeper led to goal.

The Reading and Man City's problems were more to do with the formation for me and leaving the back four exposed. Like they were constantly under Sousa's reign. Time and time again, Hobbs would have four or five men running at him with just two further defenders for help. Once the defensive midfielder gets out of position and a full back gone a step too far up the pitch, teams take advantage. Reading and Man City certainly didn't play long balls, they played counter attacking football. It wasn't hoofball at all.

As for Mee being a better passer, you're kidding. It's his biggest weaknesses. Game after game Wellens bollocked him for conceding possession.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

First of all, you haven't but a lot of said we should be signing Mee.

I am trying to think where that occur tbh. Man City were clearly against better players, the problem was Berner. We say all this but they scored only goal in the fashion you described.

The Reading and Man City's problems were more to do with the formation for me and leaving the back four exposed. Like they were constantly under Sousa's reign. Time and time again, Hobbs would have four or five men running at him with just two further defenders for help. Once the defensive midfielder gets out of position and a full back gone a step too far up the pitch, teams take advantage. Reading and Man City certainly didn't play long balls, they played counter attacking football. It wasn't hoofball at all.

As for Mee being a better passer, you're kidding. It's his biggest weaknesses. Game after game Wellens bollocked him for conceding possession.

Perhaps I phrased that wrong, I just meant through balls through the defence. Having slow defenders in a high defensive line is always going to cause defensive problems and give any opposition with quick forwards something to easily exploit and this did happen earlier in the season.

Also, while I never noticed it at the time, so you could be right (and I don't have a chance to notice it for 3 months). If what you say about him being a confidence player and some of his mistakes (which let's face it happened pretty regularly this season) were more down being outnumbered by attackers given the way we play is right, then how is he ever going to build that confidence back up given the way we play it's going to be happening regularly?

I'm not knocking Hobbs as a player, he'll probably go elsewhere (Hull?) and be very effective for them, but I just think his lack of pace is too much of a weakness in the high defensive line we play and that he's never going to be as effective in our current style than he was under Pearson's. As such, while we are playing this way I just don't see him being the answer to our defensive problems, regardless of whether he is at full confidence or not.

Of course, I'm happy for Hobbs to come in next season and prove me wrong.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Mee, I've always seen him as a good passer of the ball and again I don't have the opportunity to take extra notice now anyway. Perhaps he just plays a more short passing game (and doesn't launch into long punts forward like Hobbs does) and I'm mistaking that for being a good passer.

 

[DesertFox]

I agree with Prof. Hobbs is a decent defender but doesn't fit into Sven's system for all the reasons that Prof outlined - most of which have been ignored by other posters.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

A good center back will fit into any system IMO. Sven likes fullbacks that will overlap and push forward when in posession to support the attack but by and large the back two in a 4-4-2 are there to defend and that's it. I'm sure Sven will make the right decision either way.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

A good center back will fit into any system IMO.

He can be as great at reading the game or as intelligent as he likes, but he can't physically fashion pace out of nowhere. You don't think for a slow player to play in a high defensive line that he's going to have problems and quick strikers will be able to get past him quite easily?

Look at Lloyd Dyer, hardly technically blessed or an intelligence footballer, but all he has to do is knock the ball past his defender and he's beaten him, simply because of his pace. Stick that defensive line higher up the pitch and Dyer just has to find the slow centre back in the defensive line, knock it past him and he's through on goal.

It's not tactical theorism, it's just common sense that a slow centre-back always going to have that as a concerning weakness in the defensive line we play.

 

[Graz]

He can be as great at reading the game or as intelligent as he likes, but he can't physically fashion pace out of nowhere. You don't think for a slow player to play in a high defensive line that he's going to have problems and quick strikers will be able to get past him quite easily?

Look at Lloyd Dyer, hardly technically blessed or an intelligence footballer, but all he has to do is knock the ball past his defender and he's beaten him, simply because of his pace. Stick that defensive line higher up the pitch and Dyer just has to find the slow centre back in the defensive line, knock it past him and he's through on goal.

It's not tactical theorism, it's just common sense that a slow centre-back always going to have that as a concerning weakness in the defensive line we play.

I'm completely with Prof on this one, and don't see how anyone can not see his points, even if they don't fully agree with them.

As you say PR, Hobbs probably doesn't fit into this defence. Shame as I think he does have the ability to be a very good player, and probably make it in the Prem.

I wouldn't be suprised if our system next year, when Sven is more able to mould the squad into his own way, is quite different to what we've seen this year. But I think a high defensive line will still be part of it.

I think Hobbs will sign permanently for Hull, but I hope we at least get a decent fee and sell on. I'd like to see him make it here though, and maybe with pre-season Sven will get a better chance to try and fit Hobbs into it.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

He can be as great at reading the game or as intelligent as he likes, but he can't physically fashion pace out of nowhere. You don't think for a slow player to play in a high defensive line that he's going to have problems and quick strikers will be able to get past him quite easily?

Look at Lloyd Dyer, hardly technically blessed or an intelligence footballer, but all he has to do is knock the ball past his defender and he's beaten him, simply because of his pace. Stick that defensive line higher up the pitch and Dyer just has to find the slow centre back in the defensive line, knock it past him and he's through on goal.

It's not tactical theorism, it's just common sense that a slow centre-back always going to have that as a concerning weakness in the defensive line we play.

So you are saying we need quick center backs to be successful with our style of play? I don't buy it myself. He may not be quick but he's not exactly a slouch either and if you compare his pace with the center backs we have been using recently I'd argue there's not a great deal of difference in that department (obviously referring to Vitor/ Bamba/ Mee etc) Infact have we ever had any particularly quick centerbacks? I am struggling to think of any, probably because it's not one of the most important attributes for that position. Sure quick attackers will have the beating of you but this is where reading of the game comes in, being able to put the challenge in before pace becomes an issue. Many of the best teams in the world have center backs who are not noted for their speed. Personally I feel the high defensive line is one of our weaknesses from this season, but if Sven persists in using it then I still think Hobbs can fit in.

 

[Swissfox]

Most of them should stay, with the exception of:

Lamey
Crncic (does he actually exist?)
Weale (average keeper with a tendency of flapping way too often than necessary)
Logan (can't just remain goalkeeper No. 2 or No. 3 for ages, I hope Bristol Rovers want to keep him, they like Conrad)
Neilson (come on, Brentford, snap him up)
Hobbs? (just to further close the Pearson chapter, not comfortable enough in Sven's system)
Howard (I don't know if he can still offer something up front - I thought several League One clubs were interested in him?)
And maybe N'Guessan, too? I remember him playing really well for us away at QPR under Pearson, but he blows hot and cold.


No matter how frustrating Van Aanholt and Bruma can be, they're both still very young and have potential. I've definitely seen more good than bad from both, especially Van Aanholt should make a permanent move up to wing-back or even winger, he's way better going forward than he is playing as a defender.

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

Personally I feel the high defensive line is one of our weaknesses from this season, but if Sven persists in using it then I still think Hobbs can fit in.

"High defensive line" - shipping 71 goals suggests that's just a euphemism for how far up the pitch our (understandably) naive defence is drawn before they give the ball away.

My guess is that Hobbsy will look for a move away, unless he makes the calculation that SGE won't be around very far into next season ...

 

[drummindefender]

oi Prof! Puyol is definitely not pacey ! And Vidic is the best there is imo.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

So you are saying we need quick center backs to be successful with our style of play? I don't buy it myself.

That's fair enough. Just your opinion.

He may not be quick but he's not exactly a slouch either and if you compare his pace with the center backs we have been using recently I'd argue there's not a great deal of difference in that department (obviously referring to Vitor/ Bamba/ Mee etc)

I have to disagree, Hobbs has always been very noticeably slow when chasing back. Under Pearson is was never particularly a problem because we played so deep that as soon as an attacker knocked it past the defender he had little room between the defence and the chance for the keeper to come out.

Infact have we ever had any particularly quick centerbacks? I am struggling to think of any, probably because it's not one of the most important attributes for that position.

Well in recent years we've always had very defensive-minded managers who play very deep defences so pace hasn't particularly been an issue or indeed never really become noticeable as it never really needs to be shown.

Sure quick attackers will have the beating of you but this is where reading of the game comes in, being able to put the challenge in before pace becomes an issue.

Maybe I'm not explaining this right because in my mind it's just simple logic rather than any tactical theorism, so here is a crude out of scale diagram in MSPaint.

Your body is only so long and your speed is only so limited and you can't stick a solid wall of 11 adjacent players between the player and the goal. Regardless of how good you positioning is or how good a tackler you are, there's always going to be gaps in between defenders or over defender's heads which any defender in the world couldn't physically reach, in which counter-attacking teams can play a through ball or high ball can knock the ball into, or a player could knock the ball past.

In a deep defensive line this is rarely an issue as if you knock the ball past the defence through this gap then it's very likely to go straight through to the goalkeeper, in a high defensive line there is a lot more room to play the ball into. This is why Barcelona for example and the Dutch side of the 70s who have/had a very high defensive line play with a "sweeper keeper" and also played/play a very aggressive offside trap and a very aggressive pressing game. None of these things we seem to do/seem to have the players to do (as I said I thought at the Derby match that was exactly what Ricardo was brought in to do but he never really showed it beyond that match/some of our fans would probably have gotten on his back anyway as they seem to have a certain view of the way a goalkeeper must play).

Many of the best teams in the world have center backs who are not noted for their speed.

Yes, teams who play counter-attacking football with deep defensive lines like ManUtd and Real Madrid do.

However, teams like Barcelona who play a very high defensive line don't. I have no idea what DD is on about Puyol is well known for being quicker than most defenders.

Personally I feel the high defensive line is one of our weaknesses from this season, but if Sven persists in using it then I still think Hobbs can fit in.

I don't think a high defensive line is a weakness at all, neither is a deep defensive line. It's just a different way of playing Either can be extremely effective, depending on who the players in that line are.

A high defensive line is about trying to force the opposition into their own half and keep them there, attacking from the back if you like. Whereas a deep defensive line generally involves just trying to pack the area in front of the goal so as to just keep them out of the 25 yards in front of your goal or so.

However, it undoubtedly takes a certain type of defender to be able to fit into the high defensive line. There is always the issue that players are going to break through.

Is SGE going to change our system to fit our players in? Given the type of players who have come in seems unlikely to me. Seems he's far more the type of manager to bring players in to suit his system than the other way round.

Don't get me wrong I'd like to see Hobbs' come back and do well, but head over heart tells me that his lack of pace is going to be a worrying weakness for him. If he and the rest of the defence learn to play a very effective offside trap or we keep the ball so well the opposition can't get near is as Barcelona do then it will start to become less of an issue but there's always going to be some attacks that get through. Again, if he comes in and proves me wrong I'll be more than happy.

 

[spionfox]

That also shows why Chelsea conceded the first goal yesterday. If Alex had started instead of Luiz, Hernandez would have been caught offside.

(EDIT - no it doesn't because the blue and red are in the same relative positions! Meant that the experienced Alex would have stepped up and caught Little PeeWee offside.)

 

[H T B]

Very interesting PR. I agree with what you say about the defence, but it is also about what formation/players are in front of the back four.
Under Sven we've played 4-3-3 because we haven't had the physical player for a central role.
This, I believe has cost us in that when our 2 full backs go forward their covering player in a 4-4-2 is not always there in a 4-3-3, so exposing the centre backs.
Sven has insinuated that he wants to play 4-4-2 so be interesting to see who he brings in for that central midfield role.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Very interesting PR. I agree with what you say about the defence, but it is also about what formation/players are in front of the back four.
Under Sven we've played 4-3-3 because we haven't had the physical player for a central role.
This, I believe has cost us in that when our 2 full backs go forward their covering player in a 4-4-2 is not always there in a 4-3-3, so exposing the centre backs.
Sven has insinuated that he wants to play 4-4-2 so be interesting to see who he brings in for that central midfield role.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with any other points regarding our tactics or saying there aren't many reasons/things at play, because there obviously are a lot more than that, tactically or otherw*s*.

Just pointing out that you can have all the defensive intelligence and ability in the world but being a slow defender in a high defensive line is always going to be a weakness and it's always going to be something that the opposition can exploit.

 

[Miles Away]

And of all the player's from the old regime that can't fit into a high defensive line...surely it's Chris Weale.

Ricardo should have stayed in the sticks as long as he was fit.

I'd expect our keeper next season to be from a team with a similar style, as he will be asked to have the ball at his feet more than most 'keepers are used to.

 

[Macky]

****ing hell! The Profosaurus has turned into Andy Gray, brilliant

 

[Profondo Rosso]

****ing hell! The Profosaurus has turned into Andy Gray, brilliant

*Insert joke about women* :icon_wink