Cardiff (a) 2-0

[syd]

this isn't about linguistics, it's a technical term.

This has nothing to do with politics.

Even technical terms concern linguistics - and when I say 'conservative' it's a reference to Prescriptivism vs Descriptivism, not politics, though the two often coincide. There are those in linguistics who say language is how it is, don't go changing it - and others who prefer to observe the changes and allow language to change. So it's not so much incorrect to say 'irony' is a twist of fate (in fact, that 'misuse' is in the dictionary now), it's just a development in the meaning of the word.

As far as 'centre half' is concerned, it's not a dead term, it's still alive and it's perhaps changed its significance. I have no idea whether you're a Tory, if you are then good luck to you, but I'm of the point of view that if people use a term in a certain way then that has some kind of validity.

I've just bored the shit out of everyone with something I'm pretending I know loads about. Sorry. Sven rules.

 

[syd]

Oh for ****s sake
NO!!!!
THAT IS NOT WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE!

I've made sure that this is in very big letters so that you are very clear about this syd, this is not about YOU.
I know that you love to get your rocks off feeding this pathetic persecution complex that you have, but what has happened is that you've stumbled into an old debate being rehashed.

This has got absolutely **** all to do with you syd, sorry about that fella

You're a very angry man aren't you? Does it hurt that people more intelligent than you use this site? If you seriously think it's not 'picky' to say to someone, in a discussion about football, that you should be saying 'centre back' instead of 'centre half' then you really are as futile a human being as I originally thought you to be. And if this is an old debate and I've 'stumbled into' it, then that really is hysterical. You can work out why, I know you have the time on your hands.

 

[syd]

Errr, why should he have done better when the pool of players he was choosing from was becoming smaller due to the increase of players not from this island- The less decent players to choose from is surely not a good thing??

Come on, I'm not very good at using big words to argue a point but even I'm not stupid enough not to realise the influx of such players has seriously damaged the growth of English-born players being first-team regulars in the Prem sides.:icon_roll

I agree with you, but you can't say our pool of players were inferior to those which won the World Cup for Italy, or those which Portugal used to defeat Sven's England twice.

 

[beaumontfox]

oh ffs.......

There is a big difference between thinking Sven can do no wrong- that he IS doing a good job but sometimes you wonder what the feck is he doing- and the way you are always belittling everything the man does.

It's like you WANT him to crash and burn so you cna turn around and say 'told you so'. Which I'm sure you will do if we don't get promoted.


And this is despite the fact that he took over a side that not only was rock bottom of the division, but the attitude was completely wrong and 'team spirit' no longer existed.
Whatever reasons brought him here doesn't matter to me. As far as I'm concerned he changed the atmosphere of the place and made the squad believe in themselves again. And the relegation fears which were there whilst that muppet was in charge disappeared very quickly.

So just for turning the fortunes of a side which had seemed to have had it's confidence drained away within a couple of months he deserves some credit.


Saying all that, he best get Weale back inbetween them bloody sticks though, cos like his idea with Kirkland, it's not working with this one either!

 

[Macky]

You're a very angry man aren't you?

Yes, I'm furious, but I'm not much of a man though.

Does it hurt that people more intelligent than you use this site?

It tears me apart inside and makes me break things off the wall.

If you seriously think it's not 'picky' to say to someone, in a discussion about football, that you should be saying 'centre back' instead of 'centre half' then you really are as futile a human being as I originally thought you to be. And if this is an old debate and I've 'stumbled into' it, then that really is hysterical.

I'm just making sure that you aren't feeding your ego any further, in what ever futile way that I can.

You can work out why, I know you have the time on your hands.

My time is actually very limited. I have a whole Internet full of porn to wank myself stupid to.

 

[syd]

Of course I don't want them to crash and burn. And no, I won't say 'I told you so', obviously not, because all I've said is that it's too early to go saying he's a far better LCFC manager than O'Neill, that as of yet all he's done is spend tonnes of money and have a good half-season. Sven's doing well at the moment, but let's leave it at that.

 

[RHYDAL]

 

[Macky]

 

[Profondo Rosso]

I'll address this point by point as I'm pretty useless with this quoting business.

Managers DO lose their coaching ability - Howard Kendall, Howard Wilkinson, Dave Bassett, Brian Clough, Ron Atkinson, Peter Reid, Terry Venables... all successful managers who had miserable ends to their careers because their methods became dated. O'Neill was still a successful manager last year, Sven was last successful in 1998. And I wouldn't put down O'Neill's work with Celtic - after all most of Sven's titles came in the Portuguese and Swedish leagues.

Do you know anything about football outside England? The Portuguese league is FAR, FAR superior to the SPL and is one of the top leagues in Europe, no question. It's not up with the "big 3" Italian (of which Sven has won a title in), Spanish and English leagues, but it's certainly alongside the second tier of the German and French leagues.

Last successful in 1998?! He won the double in Italy in 2000 and the Cup-Winners Cup in 1999, ffs! MON has never even gotten close to those achievements.

He also did a very good job at England, regardless of what you think of the players, it was a side full of midfielding playmakers with no balance whatsoever. How well have we done in the time since Sven left or the years preceding his tenure? We haven't come close to replicating it. As others have said England are an average side on a world scale and he is probably England's most consistantly successful manager since Alf Ramsey.

He also took ManCity to their highest points total for 30 odd years in his one season there. Everyone was shocked when he was sacked if you think back (of course we know why given what's happened with the owners), ManCity fans protested outside the ground at the time of th sacking.

Fair enough, he failed at Mexico, but that was based on 6 games.

Secondly, comparing City's passing football with that of Barca is foolish to say the least. They can play whatever system they choose because they have the best players in the world. We don't even have the best players in the English second tier.

You pick one name out of several? I also compared them to Blackpool and WBA last season, did they have the best players in the world?

And finally, if we can't casually wonder why it is that we may be losing games - and if we all have to settle for the fact that the manager knows best - then why didn't we all just shut our mouths and let that lovely Sousa chap get on with his job?

:icon_lol: Because Sousa lost several games and his team were deject of anything. Sven has won a a lot more games than he's lost.

because all I've said is that it's too early to go saying he's a far better LCFC manager than O'Neill

No you didn't. You've said that O'Neill is a far better manager than Sven, nothing to do with him being a better manager for us. No one is going to claim SGE has been a better manager for us over MON based on half a season. However, Sven-Goran Eriksson is quite clearly a better manager than MON. MON is a good Premier League manager, but he's really achieved very little in the grand scheme of things and he's never going to be of a Champions League quality manager.

And he's hardly succeeded as recently as last season at Villa at all either, he did a pretty average job there.

 

[David Gwilliam]

You also said in an earlier post: "No, it's not. A centre-half was a position popular decades a go (Billy Wright was a centre-half for example) that is virtually never played in the modern game. It was much more akin to the modern defensive midfielder, than the modern centre-back."

I saw Billy Wright. He never played in a position akin to to the modern defensive midfielder. He was the central defender in W-M (2-3-5 was long gone by then) and his job was to mark the opposing centre forward.

Some teams started playing a twin spearhead formation by moving an inside forward up along side the centre forward. To counter this, the other side moved a wing half back into the back line so he was virtually a second centre back, and the formation quickly evolved from W-M to 4-2-4.

Certainly this accords with my memory. My father took me to see the great Wolves side play the Busby Babes who had the England centreforward Tommy Taylor. Afterwards I was full of praise for Duncan Edwards who was spectaculalrly good but said how Taylor did nothing. My father said that this was because he was marked by Billy Wright who was my father said "the best player on the pitch".

In those days when football featured a lot of individual battles the job of the centrehalf was quite simply to nullify the centreforward. Indeed until Jack Charlton in the mid-1960s it was rare for a centre half to go up for corners. Wright's only real British rival as a defender (IMO) was Bobby Moore but by Moore's time (10 years later) there would be two in the middle.

Wright incidentally was technically an ex-Leicester player playing for us in wartime matches.

 

[syd]

Your inexplicable vendetta against Martin O'Neill aside, I can say that Portuguese football these days has very little on Scottish football, having had the misfortune to see plenty of it. A couple of very decent teams and that's all. Benfica - Sven's old team - and Celtic have made a fairly equal non-impact on Europe in recent years (despite the fact that Benfica have won more comps than any other club in the world). And I should remind you that Sven and MON won exactly the same number of Champions Leagues.

The key difference is that Sven has spent 1 and a half years in English football management, to O'Neill's 14.

In future you'll have to tell me when it is and isn't acceptable to question - as opposed to criticise - what a football manager's doing. According to you it's far better to wait until we're bottom of the table and, in the meantime, blindly accept EVERY decision he makes.

You can kid yourself all you want; if Sven takes us up and keeps us there it'll be his first major success in football since the last century. Since then O'Neill has secured five top ten finishes in the Premier League and won a handful of foreign leagues. I'd love Sven to do it, but it doesn't matter how desperate we are for him to do well, he still hasn't done it yet. That doesn't mean he won't, it just means some of you need to open your eyes.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Your inexplicable vendetta against Martin O'Neill aside,

What vendetta? He's a good Premier League manager, but no more. He did an excellent job for us, but that doesn't mean I'd want him over a clearly more successful and better manager, who also plays much more enjoyable football.

I can say that Portuguese football these days has very little on Scottish football, having had the misfortune to see plenty of it. A couple of very decent teams and that's all. Benfica - Sven's old team - and Celtic have made a fairly equal non-impact on Europe in recent years (despite the fact that Benfica have won more comps than any other club in the world). And I should remind you that Sven and MON won exactly the same number of Champions Leagues.

How exactly have you seen plenty of Portuguese football? And why would you watch much of it if you consider it a "misfortune" to do so? Just curious.

All the top leagues in Europe only have 3 or 4 top teams, what is your point? Winning these leagues is a greater achievement because the quality of managers and players is better.

Rangers and Celtic are no better than Championship teams. Befica, Porto and Sporting most certainly are (Porto were Champions of Europe only 6 or 7 years a go). Would you describe Alex McLeish as as great manager, because he's won the SPL, in fact he beat MON to an SPL title?

Porto, Benfica and Sporting Lisbon have all achieved much, much, much more in Europe than any Scottish side in recent seasons, this is shown by the UEFA co-efficient, which is a measurement of this. The Portugese league is ranked #6 in Europe. The Scottish league is currently ranked #15, behind the leagues of Romania, Belgium and Denmark. The Portugese league is actually much, much nearer in terms of co-effeciants to the Spanish league than that of the Scottish one.

:icon_lol: And you're right Sven has won exactly the same number of Champions Leagues as MON, but that doesn't make him as good a manager as him, as by that token I am also as good a manager as MON as I have won the same number of Champions League titles as him too.

However, Sven has reached more Champions League finals and he has won more Cup Winners' Cups and UEFA Cups and "big 3" league titles and league titles in good European leagues.

The key difference is that Sven has spent 1 and a half years in English football management, to O'Neill's 14.

And what's your point? Why does that make MON a better manager than SGE? Football does exist outside this country you know.

In future you'll have to tell me when it is and isn't acceptable to question - as opposed to criticise - what a football manager's doing. According to you it's far better to wait until we're bottom of the table and, in the meantime, blindly accept EVERY decision he makes.

Could you please point out to where I have said that? Where have I said we should blindly accept every decision he makes or not criticise him? If he makes mistakes, then do so. However, you were criticising him for playing players you've never even seen play, I was saying your criticism were ludicrous, not because you can't criticise Sven, but because your actual criticisms were based on you not actually seeing a player play before.

You can kid yourself all you want; if Sven takes us up and keeps us there it'll be his first major success in football since the last century. Since then O'Neill has secured five top ten finishes in the Premier League and won a handful of foreign leagues. I'd love Sven to do it, but it doesn't matter how desperate we are for him to do well, he still hasn't done it yet. That doesn't mean he won't, it just means some of you need to open your eyes.

What does "this century" have to do with it? Since when did the exact moment the clock turned to 00:00:00 on 01.01.2000 suddenly wipe all other achievements before that clean.

MON has had much more chance to win things this century, because he has been in club management, where a manager has 4 chances to win major silverware every year, the majority of this century Sven has spent in international management, where he has the chance of one major trophy every 2 years. Yet he has still won the double in Italy this century, an achievement which easily surpasses anything MON has done in it.

He has also reached the last 8 in 3 major international tournaments, a Champions league quarter final and finished in the top half of the Premier League, which apparently what makes a great manager.

Oh, and MON has 4 top 10 Prem finishes this century, not 5.

 

[pds]

This argument is really exciting, any chance we could carry it on in to the Coventry pre-match thread?

 

[Macky]

I love when syd to to build a coherent argument, but only manages to build up a few strawmen so that he can knock them down all by himself. It's hilarious.

He's incredibly intelligent, has he told you that yet? He keeps telling me, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence of it yet.

 

[city-faithful]

Oh for ****s sake
NO!!!!
THAT IS NOT WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE!

I've made sure that this is in very big letters so that you are very clear about this syd, this is not about YOU.
I know that you love to get your rocks off feeding this pathetic persecution complex that you have, but what has happened is that you've stumbled into an old debate being rehashed.

This has got absolutely **** all to do with you syd, sorry about that fella

Of course not Macky, dear. It's all about YOU!

 

[Graz]

I keep clicking into this thread to read new replies, then remember that it's all crap and promptly close it again.

Thought I'd add a quick reply in this time too.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

I keep clicking into this thread to read new replies, then remember that it's all crap and promptly close it again.

Thought I'd add a quick reply in this time too.

It's not utter crap, it's top notch entertainment. It amuses me greatly to argue with him, some of his responses have genuinely made me laugh out loud.

 

[Macky]

Of course not Macky, dear. It's all about YOU!

FEED ME, DAMN YOU, FEED ME!!!

I DEMAND ATTENTION!

 

[Blaarev]

Can we get this thread on the official season highlights DVD? Please? And on Blu-ray?

 

[fitz]

It's not utter crap, it's top notch entertainment. It amuses me greatly to argue with him, some of his responses have genuinely made me laugh out loud.

Do you select the comedy shows for BBC?