Enjoyed some nice British pork for your dinner?

[Feriol]

Survival of the fittest?

 

[LS6_Fox]

Bacon.

 

[FryattFox]

I do neither. I agree the treatment is cruel. But I eat meat, I wont give up eating meat because I enjoy it and it benefits me. What am I supposed to do?

Well if you enjoy it heaven forbid that anything or anyone suffers in its production.

I am sure you don't check the background of all the fruit and veg suppliers you use to see what chemicals they spray the crops with and whether they are harmful or not or check all the factories of the clothing you buy to see if they use child labor or have poor working conditions and pay for the employees.

There are plenty of companies who are much more ethical than others. I appreciate that it's impossible to guarantee that everything is fair or that no-one has suffered in the production of your purchases, but it's pretty easy to take a decent step towards this.

It's just that most people can't be bothered.

If that makes me a **** then so be it.

And there we have it.

I have yet to have a meat-eater who routinely purchases factory farmed produce conclude the argument with anything other than that they don't care. And I'm not sure that that is entirely true. It's much more that they don't want to make any sacrifices which, as I said before, is a sad reflection on modern society.

 

[FryattFox]

Survival of the fittest?

Well there's a well reasoned argument if ever I saw one.

 

[Feriol]

Well there's a well reasoned argument if ever I saw one.

It was tongue in cheek, but i do think there is a point for debate in there.

Why do we have a moral responsibility to the welfare of animals?

 

[FryattFox]

It was tongue in cheek, but i do think there is a point for debate in there.

Why do we have a moral responsibility to the welfare of animals?

Why do we have a moral responsibility to the welfare of anyone?

I'm not going to get into whether there's a 'greater moral responsibility' argument as it's not something I particularly care about.

But put it this way: if you walked into a friend's house and they had a pig kept in a cage so small that it couldn't sit down, let alone move around; that your friend routinely abused and hurt; that was standing in it's own faeces (I get the irony...); that never saw the light of day; and that was fed on a cocktail of antibiotics and other artificial substances so as to make it as fat as possible as quickly as possible, and you thought that that was acceptable, then you are one screwed up human being.

It doesn't matter that this goes on in a larger scale and is out of site; it's so wrong it's unbelievable.

 

[Blaby blue blood]

There are plenty of companies who are much more ethical than others. I appreciate that it's impossible to guarantee that everything is fair or that no-one has suffered in the production of your purchases, but it's pretty easy to take a decent step towards this.

It's just that most people can't be bothered.

So, what steps have you taken to ensure that everything you buy is in line with your beliefs? Are there certain companies you will or wont use due to human rights issues, or is it just animals you care about?

And there we have it.

I have yet to have a meat-eater who routinely purchases factory farmed produce conclude the argument with anything other than that they don't care. And I'm not sure that that is entirely true. It's much more that they don't want to make any sacrifices which, as I said before, is a sad reflection on modern society.

You are quite right, I don't care enough to stop, otherwise I would have stopped, obviously. If humans were being sacrificed then yes I would make the effort to change.

If we were not supposed to eat meat, then why is it so ****ing delicious!!!

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against you, or vegetarians in general, you do and believe what ever you like. But I will not have someone tell me what I should and shouldn't eat because a pig got kicked in the head.

 

[Feriol]

Why do we have a moral responsibility to the welfare of anyone?

I'm not going to get into whether there's a 'greater moral responsibility' argument as it's not something I particularly care about.

But put it this way: if you walked into a friend's house and they had a pig kept in a cage so small that it couldn't sit down, let alone move around; that your friend routinely abused and hurt; that was standing in it's own faeces (I get the irony...); that never saw the light of day; and that was fed on a cocktail of antibiotics and other artificial substances so as to make it as fat as possible as quickly as possible, and you thought that that was acceptable, then you are one screwed up human being.

It doesn't matter that this goes on in a larger scale and is out of site; it's so wrong it's unbelievable.

I don't understand how you can not care about 'greater moral responsibility' and think that meat eaters should feel guilty?

I'll admit i'm feeling a bit argumentative, and i don't condone such treatment.

 

[FryattFox]

So, what steps have you taken to ensure that everything you buy is in line with your beliefs? Are there certain companies you will or wont use due to human rights issues, or is it just animals you care about?

Although I think that it's a completely separate argument to the vegetarian debate, yes I do try and ensure that I am not impacting on the quality of life of other humans and animals.

I don't purchase from many major companies, all of our cleaning/toiletries/medicine* are not tested on animals and ethically sourced, I eat a practically vegan diet, etc.

To be honest, all of this is almost irrelevant. There are two sides to many of the decisions that I have just mentioned, and therefore I wouldn't expect people to necessarily agree with my opinion on them. But I have yet to find the other side to not purchasing factory farmed meat. My beef (excuse the pun) isn't against the eating of meat, as again that is a two sided argument. But the purchasing and effective condoning of factory farmed meat is barbaric and disgusting, and I can only hope that the world realises this with time.

*where possible

You are quite right, I don't care enough to stop, otherwise I would have stopped, obviously. If humans were being sacrificed then yes I would make the effort to change.

If we were not supposed to eat meat, then why is it so ****ing delicious!!!

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against you, or vegetarians in general, you do and believe what ever you like. But I will not have someone tell me what I should and shouldn't eat because a pig got kicked in the head.

I can only repeat that if you think that you don't care, then there's nothing I can say. But as you've already alluded to, I think that you do care. It's just inconvenient to you.

 

[Blaby blue blood]

Although I think that it's a completely separate argument to the vegetarian debate, yes I do try and ensure that I am not impacting on the quality of life of other humans and animals.

I don't purchase from many major companies, all of our cleaning/toiletries/medicine* are not tested on animals and ethically sourced, I eat a practically vegan diet, etc.

To be honest, all of this is almost irrelevant. There are two sides to many of the decisions that I have just mentioned, and therefore I wouldn't expect people to necessarily agree with my opinion on them. But I have yet to find the other side to not purchasing factory farmed meat. My beef (excuse the pun) isn't against the eating of meat, as again that is a two sided argument. But the purchasing and effective condoning of factory farmed meat is barbaric and disgusting, and I can only hope that the world realises this with time.

*where possible

The point I was trying to make is how can someone tell me what I should care about when their life is far from perfect and there are things they ignore and turn their back on at their own convenience.

However you have shown that you do your best, and that is a credit to you. Plus you have completely piss on my argument, so thanks for that :icon_bigg

I can only repeat that if you think that you don't care, then there's nothing I can say. But as you've already alluded to, I think that you do care. It's just inconvenient to you.

I didn't say I don't care, I said I don't care enough to make a change. I view certain animals in certain ways. Some are for what they produce, milk, meat etc. Some are for pets, some are for watching and some are a pain in the arse!

 

[FryattFox]

I don't understand how you can not care about 'greater moral responsibility' and think that meat eaters should feel guilty?

I don't care about the rationale and arguments behind it. That doesn't mean that I don't think that there is one, through whatever means.

and i don't condone such treatment.

But you do purchase it?

 

[FryattFox]

The point I was trying to make is how can someone tell me what I should care about when their life is far from perfect and there are things they ignore and turn their back on at their own convenience.

However you have shown that you do your best, and that is a credit to you. Plus you have completely piss on my argument, so thanks for that :icon_bigg

Apologies.

I view certain animals in certain ways. Some are for what they produce, milk, meat etc. Some are for pets, some are for watching and some are a pain in the arse!

It's very hard not to as it's completely natural, but the old 'because it's always been like that' argument isn't the best. There's no real logic to not eating horse or wearing dog, just as much as there is no logic to believing that it's natural to drink the milk from another mammal that was intended for their young.

 

[Mawsley]

Homer eats meat, so the writing on the toilet walls says.

 

[FryattFox]

Homer eats meat, so the writing on the toilet walls says.

Was the 'o' in Homer created using a hole in the wall?

 

[Feriol]

I don't care about the rationale and arguments behind it. That doesn't mean that I don't think that there is one, through whatever means.

So if you don't believe that i should make a decision on whether to eat the meat from such farms on moral grounds, what should my decision be based on? Or does the above statement mean you don't care where i get my morals as long as they are the same as yours?

But you do purchase it?

Yes. I am not going to say its great for the pigs though, and if reasonable improvements can be made, then great.

 

[LS6_Fox]

Sausages for tea boys.

 

[SJN-Fox]

Mmmm, nice cold pork sandwich for my lunch.

 

[FryattFox]

So if you don't believe that i should make a decision on whether to eat the meat from such farms on moral grounds, what should my decision be based on? Or does the above statement mean you don't care where i get my morals as long as they are the same as yours?

Your decision should be based on moral grounds; I just don't mind where you think morals come from.

And they don't have to be the same as mine...I'd just be impressed if you had morals that didn't entail compassion.

Yes. I am not going to say its great for the pigs though, and if reasonable improvements can be made, then great.

I don't think people should say that they don't condone something whilst contributing towards it.

 

[SwedeFox]

Well, you can make the argument that animals are not conscious in the same way that humans are, and therefore do not experience pain in the same way. That their pain-avoiding behaviour is a product of natural selection and is there to better their chances of survival, that they're not actually aware of that they are in pain. I don't have an opinion on that, but I know that some people take that view.

Just out of interest, FF, where do you draw the line for where it's acceptable to kill an animal and how do you draw that line? I'm thinking of vermin etc.

Ok, just re-read the thread and what you're actually objecting to is not the actual killing of animals but the way they're being treated. Then you may ignore my post.

 

[FryattFox]

Well, you can make the argument that animals are not conscious in the same way that humans are, and therefore do not experience pain in the same way. That their pain-avoiding behaviour is a product of natural selection and is there to better their chances of survival, that they're not actually aware of that they are in pain. I don't have an opinion on that, but I know that some people take that view.

I think you'll find that most modern studies are showing that animals experience pain in a similar way to which we do, and that the human race is incredibly speciesist in this regard. There was a brilliant series on BBC1 about the intelligence of animals recently.

Just out of interest, FF, where do you draw the line for where it's acceptable to kill an animal and how do you draw that line? I'm thinking of vermin etc.

As you saw above, all I care about is the mistreatment and suffering of animals.