Would the real Leicester City, please step forward

[Hammond Organ]

Size of population is a factor - though not the actual population of the town or city, which is quite arbtrary. But being in an area which has a large number of people with easy access and little competition does mean that there will always be a significant number of people who identify with the club and ensure that even in the bad times there will be a reasonable level of support. That is a requirement to sustain a position in the higher reaches of the league structure.

But you need some level of success for this though. Late 80s we were getting 8000 for home games at Filbert Street, yet after the MON era we have average 23000 and we are roughly where we were during the Pleat years in terms of league position (And in some cases performance).

Cov I am sure, with less recent success, have a smaller average crowd, yet as pointed out above they have a larger population.

 

[OldGit]

Wouldn't disagree with your general point, but I was saying that just looking at the population of a town in itself says little - The poulation of the Coventry urban area is much smaller than the population of the Leicester urban area even though the city itself has a slightly larger population. And it is very much on the fringe of Birmingham and competing for support with more teams than we are.

Similarly the population of Newcastle is much smaller than either of them, but it is the only club in an urban area of nearly a million.

Obviously population does not equal success, or Hull and Bristol would have had teams competing at the higher levels, but being in an area of low population cannot sustain success other than for short periods (Carlise, Northampton, and other one season wonders)

Everyone had poor attendances in the 80s when we were averaging around 11,000 & ours stayed roughly the same in relation to everyone else.

 

[consty]

About 12th-16th in premier league would be about right. Always anxiously looking at the relegation dog-fight but apart from one or two anxious moments never really being in it. Under O'Neil 9th where we looked at Europe and never at relegation was an over-acheivement. I think no-mans land in mid to lower mid-table is a noble acheivement for a club like LCFC with a decent support but no indecent money like Chelsea, Liverpool, etc.

 

[camberwell fox]

Wouldn't disagree with your general point, but I was saying that just looking at the population of a town in itself says little - The poulation of the Coventry urban area is much smaller than the population of the Leicester urban area even though the city itself has a slightly larger population. And it is very much on the fringe of Birmingham and competing for support with more teams than we are.

Similarly the population of Newcastle is much smaller than either of them, but it is the only club in an urban area of nearly a million.

Obviously population does not equal success, or Hull and Bristol would have had teams competing at the higher levels, but being in an area of low population cannot sustain success other than for short periods (Carlise, Northampton, and other one season wonders)

Everyone had poor attendances in the 80s when we were averaging around 11,000 & ours stayed roughly the same in relation to everyone else.

Excellent debate everyone.

Well, as i thought the future could be bleak without a large sustainable financial backing.

Therefore i see only 1 route to break in and compete with the top teams (top 6 lets call it for now).

With milans money (considerable but not in the same league as some of the top 6) then we MUST adopt the Man U syndrome. What sets them apart from the others in teh top 6 is the long standind tenure of Alex F, an excellent youth structure and not selling top players unless they want to.

Lets not forget old trafford used to be around 35 000-40 000 capacity (didn't it?).

Their youth system bought through a great clutch of players all at once, smattered with some great buys not neccessarily for silly money, they have gradually built up momentum to where they are now.

I admit they historically are a far more successful club than ours, but if we can find and hang on to a good manager, incentivise the local area to come and watch us, surely success breeds success.

Our ground can be extended, we don't need to sell players to balance the books (if we reach the prem), so there is no reason why we can't achieve a great level of success over a few years.

As someone else pointed out MON had us (relatively) successful without massive purchases. He made shrewd purchases and had everyone who played under him (and this is the same whoever he has managed) playing to the top or above of their ability.

We can be successful, we need patience and some clear heads and a 5 year plan...

 

[Redditch Fox]

I agree with that.

If you lok at the last 60 years (ie since the 92-club league structure) we have averaged about 20th, among a cluster of about ten teams like Derby, Forest, Sunderland, the 2 Sheffields, West Ham etc. We have, with Suderland and Wednesday, been the ultimate Yo-Yo. We have tended to do slightly better than that group in the 2 cup competitions. So you could say that is our "natural" position.

However, as Braunie points out, since the introduction of the Prem and Champions league, things have changed and for clubs like us the occasional bout of over-achievement becomes steadily less likely, and a "new order" is evolving with a group of clubs who will be the new permanent "bottom of Prem/top of Championship". Every year that passes without joining that group makes it less likely that we will.

I'd go even further.

I think people like me have been fortunate to see Leicester City in some of it best days. Even I am not old enough to be able to connect with the great Leicester sides of the 1930's but I did see the Gillies team of the early 60's challenge the very best in the land; the Bloomfield team play as attractive football as anyone and also take in the MON era when frankly his sides were functionally very effective but not that attractive to watch.

Hower, sorry folks - but that is as good as it will ever get. You won't see any of that again.

In a few years there will be a major European league with at its core, the best of England, Italy & Spain. Leicester City will not be involved at that level.
The top domestic league in England will then be second rate.

All that said I agree - as usual - with O.G. - it is very important in the shorter term that we do get back into the Premiership even if it is only for a season. Derby are much better placed than us because of their one season there - and we should look on their plight now as a cause for concern about the huge gap which has occured in standards within the Premiership rather than with any pleasure.

 

[alex]

The things that has, until recently, been true of Leicester City, has been the ability to raise our game. I remember being a kid and my Nan (who lived next door to the Lineker's at the time...) used to always say 'if only we could play Liverpool every week..' we are foxes, under-dogs almost by definition, surviving on the skin of our teeth...

 

[consty]

I'd go even further.

....In a few years there will be a major European league with at its core, the best of England, Italy & Spain. Leicester City will not be involved at that level.
The top domestic league in England will then be second rate...

The sooner this happens the better. I'd rather Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U and Arsenal all fuc*ed off to a European super league in all frankness and left us all alone to play with genuine chances of competing amongst ourselves. We'd soon get used to playing without them - and different clubs in England would become the new big teams to aim to beat which at present might be the likes of Man City, Villa etc. Big teams come and go, or at least they used to... aiming to play and beat Preston North End was a big aspiration for teams in the old days, Wolves in the 50's etc. We'd get used to waving goodbye to that bloated quartet of teams I cited above and aiming to play and beat the likes of Man City and Villa instead. At least good clubs with good-sized support would have a decent chance of success and increased chances of being in the premier league if those 4 clubs waved adios to us all. Goodbye and good riddance is what I'd say to them

 

[Hammond Organ]

Wouldn't disagree with your general point, but I was saying that just looking at the population of a town in itself says little - The poulation of the Coventry urban area is much smaller than the population of the Leicester urban area even though the city itself has a slightly larger population. And it is very much on the fringe of Birmingham and competing for support with more teams than we are.

Similarly the population of Newcastle is much smaller than either of them, but it is the only club in an urban area of nearly a million.

Obviously population does not equal success, or Hull and Bristol would have had teams competing at the higher levels, but being in an area of low population cannot sustain success other than for short periods (Carlise, Northampton, and other one season wonders)

Everyone had poor attendances in the 80s when we were averaging around 11,000 & ours stayed roughly the same in relation to everyone else.

We are definitely on the same page.

 

[Matt_B]

We are definitely on the same page.

Depends how many posts per page you have it set to.

 

[western road]

Many many things come into the equation when talking about football teams in general, most of the middle order have a sprinkling of success which generates fans to believe their lot should achieve better things.

But the premier League has a lot to answer for, so has the Hutton report, Sky TV, the moneymen all quite frankly have denegrated Football in this Country.

When you consider even our Club, which in itself is probably at best a top 6 club in this league(playing well below its the standards at the moment) in the 50's playing in front of 30,000+ was a norm, in the 60's around 25/28,000 in the 70's it dropped to the lower 20's, and the 80's showed us just how mediocre we had become with some of the lowest crowds in our history
The only time we have been able to attract good players was in Matt Gillies time (Early 60's) when we had the minor success's of being top of the league at some stage
playing brilliant football and should imho been Champions
once, and then when Jimmy Bloomfield came along with dazzling football, but also with the failure to achieve a great deal, but always a classy footballing side.
When Martin came and give us our best years in terms of Success we definately over achieved because in footballing
terms we were not class as in the previous two mentioned
we were dogged in determination most of the time
but all in all we are an outfit that if given the right manger quite capable of achieving M O'N's reign once again, but,
sadly without major capital investment you are not going to worry the top 6 to 10 teams or probably the Premiership
again.

 

[Brown Nose]

The pain and the pleasure of being a Leicester fan is that our rightful place is either the bottom of the Premier League or the top of the Championship.

Anytime spent above the relegation zone of the Prem should be celebrated. Anytime below the playoffs in the Champ should be considered under achievement.

We overachieved through much of the 90's and have underachieved through much of the 00's.

We are the perfect yo-yo club. We have tended to either win consistently at a lower level and lose consistently at the higher level.

It's always frustrating being a City fan as we're never, ever, going to live up to the promise we sometimes suggest. On the other hand, we have also never witnessed the misery of the lower leagues (by the skin of our teeth recently).

The main positive in all this is that we're unlikely to be bored for very long.

 

[Hazzman]

IMO the potential is here as is the potential for the city to thrive as a whole.
We are in the third collection of clubs IMO.

The top (Man U, Liverpool etc.)
The big supported clubs (Villa, Newcastle, Man City)
Then the yo-yo's (Bolton, Boro, Leicester etc.)

I personally believe with the right approach we could make the second tier.

I wish for an age when a team could have a superb run for a season and win the league, now it's no longer sustainable.

 

[Brauny Blue]

IMO the potential is here as is the potential for the city to thrive as a whole.
We are in the third collection of clubs IMO.

The top (Man U, Liverpool etc.)
The big supported clubs (Villa, Newcastle, Man City)
Then the yo-yo's (Bolton, Boro, Leicester etc.)

I personally believe with the right approach we could make the second tier.

I wish for an age when a team could have a superb run for a season and win the league, now it's no longer sustainable.

Imo i dont think we are even in your 3rd tier. It was a point i made in my post earlier, that we have even fallen behind average clubs. If you quote the likes of Bolton, Boro and also add Birmingham, you are looking at clubs that because of their premier years are able to spend £5-6M and even more on players. We are simply not on an even footing with that spending power. Leicester now imo are similar to the likes of Cov, Stoke, Forest, Norwich, Ipswich, Wolves, Sheff Wed and others in a hard battle to try and re-establish ourselves again. We lost our premier status at the worst possible time imo, and its costing us years of painful viewing watching the club trying to mend the broken pieces.

 

[fox58]

the best i coud find are tables up to the end of the 2005/06 season where we are 26th in the all time table and 18th in the premier league although Charton and Bolton would now have overtaken us in the premier table with the points they collected las season.

the interesting one is the third link this is the all time championship/first division/ old secondon division or more plainly the total points collected in the second tier of english football where we are lying 2nd behind Barnsley.


http://www.the-english-football-archive.com/records/all_time_table.htm

http://www.the-english-football-archive.com/records/premier_table.htm

http://www.the-english-football-archive.com/records/2nd_level_table.htm

 

[Hazzman]

IIf you quote the likes of Bolton, Boro and also add Birmingham, you are looking at clubs that because of their premier years are able to spend £5-6M and even more on players.

You're probably right and it was in a daydream of idealism but I hope we don't have the likes of Bolton and Boro in the Premier League much more longer. Bolton are attempting to kill off football and Boro are just nothing, only get a crowd when it's Top 4.

 

[Uncle Connolly]

the best i coud find are tables up to the end of the 2005/06 season where we are 26th in the all time table and 18th in the premier league although Charton and Bolton would now have overtaken us in the premier table with the points they collected las season.

the interesting one is the third link this is the all time championship/first division/ old secondon division or more plainly the total points collected in the second tier of english football where we are lying 2nd behind Barnsley.

http://www.the-english-football-archive.com/records/2nd_level_table.htm

Even Loughborough's in there!

Interesting stuff.

 

[Feriol]

If every other team performed as expected then we would be Upper Mid Championship to playoffs.

 

[Redditch Fox]

sadly without major capital investment you are not going to worry the top 6 to 10 teams or probably the Premiership
again.

I think that it's crystal clear that MM would not have the sort of money to lash out on different class players were we to be promoted in a few season's time. So presumably he would try to sell on the club.

As a ball park figure you could be looking at a £30m plus investment to make the transition and that is if you could persuade the players of a necessary class to sign for Leicester.

I was casually watching bits from the Man City v West Ham league game the other evening. Two very decent but not super sides - but the quality of the players and the game was a world or two above the stuff I see when I make the big effort to go to The Walkers. In the first instance the Prem players were knocking the ball into spaces; their team mates knew where the ball was going and players fitted neatly into an established pattern of play. When I watch us playing fizzy league stuff, I see the ball knocked forward in hope rather than expectation that it will be find its destination and generally it is very difficult indeed to discern any clear pattern to the game.

It's a massive gap to overcome.

 

[Heineken Matt]

Who chuffing cares where people think or don't think we should be.

We are where we are, pretty simple really. And with a bit of stability, some decent management and players with a desire to win and wear the city shirt with pride, we may just move north of where we currently are.

Every club in the history of the game has had highs and lows, ups and downs, good players and rubbish players. You enjoy the good times, and sadly have to out up with the bad times.

We have no devine right to be anywhere other than where we are right now. I particularly love the comment about us being a yo yo team??!!

Which team have you been watching for the past 4 seasons?

 

[alex]

So true Matt, we are by no means a 'yo yo' club at the moment.