Gordon Brown

[fosseboy83]

never a frown with Gordon Brown

:icon_lol:

 

[Lako42]

Superb on the Euro front.

 

[David Gwilliam]

These policies seem more liberal to me than the neo-fascist Bliar/Brown axis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/election_2010/8679072.stm

Since the war there have been two wellknown figures who have been fascist Oswald Mosley (certainly) and Nick Griffin (probably). To suggest that Blair or Brown was Fascist is just ignorant - as is the suggestion in earlier years that Powell or Thatcher were fascist.

Steven may not have noticed but when Brown was Prime Minister we had a multi-party election. Some fascist leader he turned out to be!!!!

Fascism was a complex political creed that like Communism brought misery to millions. Its credibility ended in a Berlin bunker though it lingered in a very watered down form until the deaths of Franco and Peron in the 1970s.

Too many people use the word as a general smear to describe any politician they dislike. Those old dead fascists would have approved of this tactic.

 

[Macky]

Since the war there have been two wellknown figures who have been fascist Oswald Mosley (certainly) and Nick Griffin (probably). To suggest that Blair or Brown was Fascist is just ignorant - as is the suggestion in earlier years that Powell or Thatcher were fascist.

Steven may not have noticed but when Brown was Prime Minister we had a multi-party election. Some fascist leader he turned out to be!!!!

Fascism was a complex political creed that like Communism brought misery to millions. Its credibility ended in a Berlin bunker though it lingered in a very watered down form until the deaths of Franco and Peron in the 1970s.

Too many people use the word as a general smear to describe any politician they dislike. Those old dead fascists would have approved of this tactic.

I think you're confusing fascism with national socialism, not the same thing.
Considering Bliar's term in office, I don't think fascism is that wide of the mark.

 

[David Gwilliam]

I think you're confusing fascism with national socialism, not the same thing.
Considering Bliar's term in office, I don't think fascism is that wide of the mark.

I have always considered National Socialism to be a form of fascism although I realise some people do distinguish them. It is difficult to judge but I would count the British Union Of Fascists as closer to Hitler's biews than to Mussolini.

As for Blair I was often asked how History will regard Mrs Thatcher both by her admirers and her detractors and my answer was always ask me in a hundred years time. We are too close to Blair to judge him easily.

Iraq will clearly be seen as important to the Blair premiership but arguably Ireland and devolution will be seen as more important. (Small comfort if like a friend of mine you lost a son in Iraq).

Our view of Iraq has been distorted by hindsight. Judging by Republican friends of mine conservative opinion in the West was looking for an excuse to kill Moslems after 9-11 and were serious about going after Syria once they had defeated Iraq. One thing was certain, America was going into Iraq whether Britain joined them or not.
We can only be relieved that Iraq went wrong because a Syrian invasion was a real possibility at the time and would have been far worse.

The real tragedy for Blair was the coincidence of having 9-11 and the most incapable President since Warren Harding at the same time. I regret to say that recent e-mails have convinced me that the American Right have learned nothing from the Bush years.

 

[Macky]

We are too close to Blair to judge him easily.

Utter nonsense. He has the blood of innocents on his hands.

Iraq will clearly be seen as important to the Blair premiership but arguably Ireland and devolution will be seen as more important.

I have absolutely no notion how you could possibly reach that conclusion and I'd love to know how exactly you'd make that argument.

Our view of Iraq has been distorted by hindsight.

I think my view has been distorted by observing an illegal, unjustifiable war that has resulted in the murder of countless innocent people and the utter destruction of a sovereign nation.

Judging by Republican friends of mine conservative opinion in the West was looking for an excuse to kill Moslems after 9-11 and were serious about going after Syria once they had defeated Iraq. One thing was certain, America was going into Iraq whether Britain joined them or not.
We can only be relieved that Iraq went wrong because a Syrian invasion was a real possibility at the time and would have been far worse.

Britain & America preplanned to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan prior to 11/9/2001, the troops were already being massed. The attacks on that day gave them a convenient excuse to launch their nauseating colonialist killing sprees.

The real tragedy for Blair was the coincidence of having 9-11 and the most incapable President since Warren Harding at the same time. I regret to say that recent e-mails have convinced me that the American Right have learned nothing from the Bush years.

No. The real tragedy with Bliar was his encouragement and support of Bush in their evil warmongering.

 

[Macky]

I think my view has been distorted by observing an illegal, unjustifiable war that has resulted in the murder of countless innocent people and the utter destruction of a sovereign nation.

Apologies, I should've also mentioned the pointless deaths of all the coalition forces as well.
How many young British men and women have lost their lives after being illegally sent by Bliar to fight for nothing?

 

[Fox Fan]

I would suggest that Blair had a lot less to do with the N.I peace process than he might claim. Yes he brought the two sides together, but funding for the IRA dried up post 9/11 and as I understand it (although I don't claim this to be gospel) the IRA found itself moving from a terrorist organisation to the criminal one of today.

Apparently the IRA have perfected the recipe for Smirnoff vodka and obviously all the bank jobs they've been involved in.



I'm sure lots of people will know more about this than me, and I should state that I don't claim any of this to be matter of fact.

 

[Macky]

I would suggest that Blair had a lot less to do with the N.I peace process than he might claim.

You'd be quite correct.
The Good Friday agreement was the culmination of talks that had been continuing long before he was premier.

Yes he brought the two sides together

No. He didn't.

funding for the IRA dried up post 9/11

American support changed post 9/11, funding didn't dry up at all. Still hasn't.

the IRA found itself moving from a terrorist organisation to the criminal one of today.

Apparently the IRA have perfected the recipe for Smirnoff vodka and obviously all the bank jobs they've been involved in.

Close, but no Mars Bar.
The political element split from the criminal element (in very, very simplistic terms). But the criminal element is no different from the gangsters currently making a living out of crime in Leicestershire (or anywhere else for that matter).

 

[David Gwilliam]

I have absolutely no notion how you could possibly reach that conclusion and I'd love to know how exactly you'd make that argument.

Macky makes many interesting points and to answer any one risks being overlong. I will concentrate on the one he asks for my argument - the importance of Northern Ireland and especially of Scotland. This is perhaps self indulgence since I have been accused of having an obsession with Scottish politics that is unusual in an Englishman..

Relations between Westminister and Irish Catholics have been a constant theme from the reign of Elizabeth I onwards. In the three periods of greatest crisis Irish Cathollicism sided with Napoleonic. was often pro-Kaiser and rightly or wrongly were often seen as pro-Hitler. From 1968 onwards "The Troubles" were a thorn in the side of both Labour and Conservative governments. If - and it is an if - we have really got a lasting settlement then that is a major development. The Blair Premiership would be remembered for that if nothing else had happened.

The Scottish situation is very interesting. The election results for England and Scotland (and Wales) were quite distinct. The Conservatives won overwhelmingly in England and lost overwhelmingly in Scotland. The creation of a separate Scottish parliament marked a tremendous constitutional change. There is now in Scotland an alternative authority and one that is likely to want more and more say.

I am sure Macky understands the West Lothian question but there may be other readers who don't. It comes from Tam Dalyell (and not as sometimes suggested Gladstone or Enoch Powell). The MP for West Lothian can vote on matters to do with West Bromwich but the MP for West Bromwich cannot vote on matters to do with West Lothian.
It becamer acute when Scottish Labour MPs voted that English students should pay tuition fees when students in their own constituencies were exempt.

The problems arising from Scottish devolution are so serious that it may be seen as a major step towards the breakup of the United Kingdom.

My point was that historically Blair may be remembered as much for Northern Ireland and devolution as for Iraq. Macky rightly reminds us of the human price - the mother of a soldier killed in Iraq is one of my closest friends so I have seen that price at first hand. However, History is a callous mistress - the horrible Boer War is seen as less important than the Suffragettes.

 

[Macky]

Interesting.
The only problem with your argument David, is that Bliar can take absolutely no credit for the Good Friday Agreement, he wasn't involved. His sole contribution to the entire process was that asinine sound bite comment that he made to the media. <shudders/>

So, unless he actually writes the history books himself, I really can't see how a devolved parliament in Scotland will be seen as more important than the crimes committed against Iraq and her people.

With the greatest respect to our Scottish brothers and sisters, in global terms, their parliament is insignificant.

 

[Siouxsie]

Iraq will clearly be seen as important to the Blair premiership but arguably Ireland and devolution will be seen as more important. (Small comfort if like a friend of mine you lost a son in Iraq).

Our view of Iraq has been distorted by hindsight. Judging by Republican friends of mine conservative opinion in the West was looking for an excuse to kill Moslems after 9-11 and were serious about going after Syria once they had defeated Iraq. One thing was certain, America was going into Iraq whether Britain joined them or not.
We can only be relieved that Iraq went wrong because a Syrian invasion was a real possibility at the time and would have been far worse.

But thousands of us protested about the war before we followed the Americans like puppies. It was certainly "not in my name".

 

[David Gwilliam]

But thousands of us protested about the war before we followed the Americans like puppies. It was certainly "not in my name".

There were a number of arguments against the war from the pacifists to the pragmatic and I accept your reasons may be the same then as now. For many people their view has been affected by knowing now that there were no WMDs, that Al Quaida would gain a presence in Iraq and that the aftermath of the initial attack would be so bloody.

It is always important to distinguish between opinions held before an event and after the consequences become known. I believe in most peoples case there is some adjustment.

People should be free to protest peacefully. However, I have great misgivings about whether in a democracy the government should be take notice of those protests. If you added up those who protest the war because they were Islamic extremists or Socialist Workers you already get thousands - that is before you add the more thoughtful ptotesters of whom I take it you are one.

In the 1960s and 1970s there were very impressive marches to Aldermaston by CND. Yet all the evidence is that the vast majority of the public were (rightly or wrongly) strongly against CND.

Whether protests come from the left or right they usually include a minority who reasonable people should be troubled to be seen with. I prefer a system where an MP listens to opinion in his or her constituency, looks at the evidence and makes up his or her own mind.This hopefully is what my MP Peter Soulsby did - I hope his antiwar views were not a response to a head count of demonstrators.

As for the "not in my name" argument I have never really accepted it. I did not vote for the Conservatives or the LibDems but they have a majority in Parliament. Therefore as long as I am a citizen of the United Kingdom they are governing "in my name" whether I agree with them or not. Democracy involves accepting the result of elections.

 

[Boy Genius]

As for the "not in my name" argument I have never really accepted it. I did not vote for the Conservatives or the LibDems but they have a majority in Parliament. Therefore as long as I am a citizen of the United Kingdom they are governing "in my name" whether I agree with them or not. Democracy involves accepting the result of elections.

Well that leaves Labour, I have just switched off listening to your garbled crap.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Well that leaves Labour, I have just switched off listening to your garbled crap.

Well deduced Sherlock.
I am pleased when you quote me; I feel it always adds so much to your posts.:icon_lol:

 

[spionfox]

Well deduced Sherlock.
I am pleased when you quote me; I feel it always adds so much to your posts.:icon_lol:

Lovely stuff. That's my new sig sorted :icon_bigg

 

[Macky]

Well deduced Sherlock.
I am pleased when you quote me; I feel it always adds so much to your posts.:icon_lol:

:icon_lol:

 

[Boy Genius]

Well deduced Sherlock.
I am pleased when you quote me; I feel it always adds so much to your posts.:icon_lol:

Anybody like yourself who can vote Labour after seeing the last 13 years of incompetent handling of affairs, and being drawn into illegal wars cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Macky]

Anybody like yourself who can vote Labour after seeing the last 13 years of incompetent handling of affairs, and being drawn into illegal wars cannot be taken seriously.

Very true, but it was a great comeback in all fairness :icon_bigg

 

[Boy Genius]

Very true, but it was a great comeback in all fairness :icon_bigg

That's all he could do, as you had been ripping the shit out of all his postings. Usual labour twat getting all his facts wrong.