Gordon Brown

[fitz]

Can't believe that anyone could still attempt to justify us going to war. I voted labour as their policies appealed to me more than the other two (me being poor and such like) but the war they put us in is an absolute disgrace which can't be justified.

 

[David Gwilliam]

That's all he could do, as you had been ripping the shit out of all his postings. Usual labour twat getting all his facts wrong.

The issue of Iraq has rightly been raised and in casting my vote I took notice of the fact that Pete Soulsby had been against the Iraq War from the start and against Trident. Whether I was right or wrong to take that into account I leave to others to judge.

I am not sure that Macky was trying "to rip the shit" out of my postings. I thought his criticisms were thoughtful and serious. Certainly BG is right to contrast his own comments with Mackys thoughtful ones.

Souixsie also made a thoughtful comment. I gave them both what I hoped was a thoughtful answer. I may be being unfair to BG but I thought he was being angry and I always find anger on an internet forum faintly ridiculous.

 

[Macky]

Thoughtful debate, on an internet forum?!?!?!
That can't be right

 

[spionfox]

Thoughtful debate, on an internet forum?!?!?!
That can't be right

Mass debate is nearer the mark on here.

 

[Cate Fox]

Mass debate is nearer the mark on here.

*snigger*

 

[Macky]

Mass debate is nearer the mark on here.

What a load of old wank

 

[Blue Maniac]

What a load of old wank

Childish. But funny.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Mass debate is nearer the mark on here.

Very good.

 

[Darth Vodka]

Our view of Iraq has been distorted by hindsight

the hindsight of finding out what weapons of mass destuction there were?

god, i hate that sort of distortion of finding out the truth, i'd much rather live with the non-distortion of a lie

 

[RHYDAL]

Gordon who?

 

[Steven]

Since the war there have been two wellknown figures who have been fascist Oswald Mosley (certainly) and Nick Griffin (probably). To suggest that Blair or Brown was Fascist is just ignorant - as is the suggestion in earlier years that Powell or Thatcher were fascist.

Steven may not have noticed but when Brown was Prime Minister we had a multi-party election. Some fascist leader he turned out to be!!!!

Fascism was a complex political creed that like Communism brought misery to millions. Its credibility ended in a Berlin bunker though it lingered in a very watered down form until the deaths of Franco and Peron in the 1970s.

Too many people use the word as a general smear to describe any politician they dislike. Those old dead fascists would have approved of this tactic.

I equate fascism with any form of totalitarianism. Given the fact that Bliar and Brown and others in their cabal believe so obviously in the totality of the state as they define it and all that implies I must logically believe in their fascist tendencies many of which Macky has already outlined. Moreover I believe that the fundamental attack on the civil liberties of UK subjects and the attacks on Parliament and the unwritten Constitution give further credence to my "smear".

 

[Darth Vodka]

the unwritten Constitution

whassat then?

 

[Blue Maniac]

whassat then?

I don't get it.

 

[homer]

Every time just like the last, on her ship tied to the mast
To distant lands, takes both my hands
Never a frown, with.......

 

[lazzer]

Every time just like the last, on her ship tied to the mast
To distant lands, takes both my hands
Never a frown, with.......

:icon_lol:

 

[MHS]

Every time just like the last, on her ship tied to the mast
To distant lands, takes both my hands
Never a frown, with.......

:icon_lol:

 

[David Gwilliam]

I equate fascism with any form of totalitarianism. Given the fact that Bliar and Brown and others in their cabal believe so obviously in the totality of the state as they define it and all that implies I must logically believe in their fascist tendencies many of which Macky has already outlined. Moreover I believe that the fundamental attack on the civil liberties of UK subjects and the attacks on Parliament and the unwritten Constitution give further credence to my "smear".

My posts have provoked some interesting and welcome replies as well as one indignant splutter.Using your wide definition I can see your point. Of course your definition makes communists into fascists and I can accept there are strong similarities but I would also argue differences. Certainly, communists always claimed to be anti-fascist and the people who claimed to be fascists when the term was first being used whether Mosley, Mussolini or the Falange in Spain all seemed to sincerely hate communism.

Using "the totality of the state" as a definition is certainly interesting since the present government of China would count as more fascist than Franco. Franco who I would regard as one of the fascist trinity was authoritarian, repressive, murderous but never a believer in the totality of the state.

Under your wide definition Castro and Mugabe would both rank as fascist Would I be right in thinking that you would count Putin and Mubarack as fascists?

Words can mean what we want them to mean but I think I prefer to confine my use of the word "fascism" to the mid-20th century and use the word "authoritarian" instead.

 

[Macky]

The 14 points of fascism

 

[David Gwilliam]

the hindsight of finding out what weapons of mass destuction there were?

god, i hate that sort of distortion of finding out the truth, i'd much rather live with the non-distortion of a lie

Instead of quoting the sentence about hindsight out of context I wish you had quoted the paragraph in which you would see I was not writing about WMDs.

The hindsight that I was refering to was that the Americans would get so bogged down that an invasion of Syria would be impossible. My reference to hindsight had nothing to do with WMDs. I do maintain that there were people in the Bush administration and among ordinary Republicans who would have said "Why stop at Iraq" and I would not have put such an action beyond Bush.
There was of course no connection between Saddam and 9-11. However, for Americans the connection between 9-11 and the invasion of 2003 was very strong.

One should never sneer at hindsight; it allows historians to imagine that they are wiser than Kings.

 

[Macky]

One should never sneer at hindsight; it allows historians to imagine that they are w*s*r than Kings.

:icon_conf A strange statement to make David, do you have any examples of kings that are wiser than historians?