The Natives are restless....

[Boy Genius]

Just got back from 10 days away and I haven't got time to address half the twaddle that has been written on here since last night's game.

FACT: Reading had won 10 of their 12 home games before last night.

FACT: They had scored 30 goals in those 12 games.

FACT: Only 7 of their 12 opponents have managed to score against them.

FACT: Only one team has taken a point off them at the Madejski since the opening day of the season.

FACT: We didn't do worse than most of the others!


Now about the team selection - could it be that CL was looking at the 4 games in 8 days rather than just atb this one particular game? Could it be that he thought we had more chance of taking points in the *whole* of the 4 games if he mounted a 'damage limitation' exercise last night? If we have no chance of winning a game, what's wrong with saving some key players for games that we can win.


And I have still not seen any consensus from the "CL must go" brigade about who we should get next, whether we can actually attract that person and how long they will give them to get City into the Champions League!!

Fecking hell Boc you really must think before posting something like that. I am not asking for CL's head (yet) but reading posts like this might just turn me. As a fan I go to EVERY match expecting a win. If I didn't WTF am I doing going? I could never go to a match thinking there was not a small chance of winning, despite who we are playing. I have witnessed the double against Liverpool in a season when we got relegated, I have seen us win at Old Trafford, the first team to do so in ages. I have also seen Harlow town beat us. I know at sometime we need to rest players, so why does he not come out and say that.
Going by that theory then, are we to expect the youth side to be turned out against Spurs? I can see the point in resting players, but I dont think we can exercise that luxury too much in our position. We need points and lots of them, are we going to get them if we dont field our strongest side?

 

[Boy Genius]

Also what games can we win these days, I thought Crewe and Millwall were bankers.....

 

[Boy Genius]

No, I have never said that, I don't yet know if CL is a good manager or not.

The point I'm trying to make is that it can take a few years for a manager to get a team playing the way they want - with Coppell, W*rnock and Ferguson being some of the most high profile examples at the moment. They all had a couple of years of rebuilding and protest from fans before coming good.

The most successful managers of clubs our size in recent years have been the ones who have been given time to get things right.

Reading is a good example of that. There were anti-Coppell message board postings as recently as last Spring, and the season before last there were Coppell out chants.

Even Brian Clough didn't get f*rest promoted until his third season. Shame they didn't sack him after a year.

Clough got forest up at his first attempt I think

 

[webmaster]

Clough got forest up at his first attempt I think

No he didn't. He joined them in January 1975, and had a couple of mid-table finishes before getting them promoted.

 

[webmaster]

You are one of the people who posts reasonably worded statements to the effect that patience is needed whilst Levein gells a very inexperienced team. As I mentioned in another thread, your point sounds sensible but it's based on a myth. Levein's squad is littered with full internationals. If you have difficulty in sleeping try to identify how many clubs in this league have as many full internationals - I think you will be struggling.

CL could play something like 8 internationals if he wanted - but if he did that we'd have to have Tiatto, Dublin and Wilcox in the team!

So if we're trying to build for the future less than half of the team has a full cap. And some of those are still very inexperienced in international terms - I can't imagine playing for Canada has helped prepare Hume for life in the championship for example.

 

[Boy Genius]

No he didn't. He joined them in January 1975, and had a couple of mid-table finishes before getting them promoted.

my mistake......

 

[webmaster]

If you have difficulty in sleeping try to identify how many clubs in this league have as many full internationals - I think you will be struggling.

Wolves
Leeds
Palace
Norwich
Cardiff
Southampton

Maybe a few more.

 

[PFKAKTF FOX]

No he didn't. He joined them in January 1975, and had a couple of mid-table finishes before getting them promoted.

And if Levein could show he was capable of turning this current shower into a team that finish in mid table then we wouldnt be having this debate, as we would all be fairly content that he was in line with his plan. The problem is we are currently lying in 20th position of a distinctly average league, our results are getting worse and there is a real threat of a hard long fight against relegation, so there really is no comparison to Clough is there.

 

[fcukcov]

Internationals mean sh*t if we are not getting the results, plain and simple im afraid.

 

[MKFox]

Is CL really being compared with Ferguson and Clough?
:icon_bigg :icon_razz Fantastic...

And Sylla is the new Gary Lineker....

 

[fcukcov]

Is CL really being compared with Ferguson and Clough?
:icon_bigg :icon_razz Fantastic...

And Sylla is the new Gary Lineker....

and Kisnorbo is the new viera! Come on MK do keep up. tuttut

 

[Chrysalis]

No, I have never said that, I don't yet know if CL is a good manager or not.

The point I'm trying to make is that it can take a few years for a manager to get a team playing the way they want - with Coppell, W*rnock and Ferguson being some of the most high profile examples at the moment. They all had a couple of years of rebuilding and protest from fans before coming good.

The most successful managers of clubs our size in recent years have been the ones who have been given time to get things right.

Reading is a good example of that. There were anti-Coppell message board postings as recently as last Spring, and the season before last there were Coppell out chants.

Even Brian Clough didn't get f*rest promoted until his third season. Shame they didn't sack him after a year.

Were any of those 3 managers hovering 4 points above relegation mid season after a year?

 

[Chrysalis]

I think the damage limitation was for craig's cv and to delay his removal, wigan have proved going for 3 pts every game and taking a pasting is good by winning immediatly after a 4-0 battering vs man utd. But craig would be under much more pressure had we lost by a 4 goal margin. Although the way I see it a defeat is a defeat some people will catch on to a battering.

 

[webmaster]

Is CL really being compared with Ferguson and Clough?

No.

But if we sack him now we might never find out how good he is, that's the point I'm trying to make - just like Fergie etc might not have gone on to achieve what they did if they'd been sacked as soon as there was a bit of fans unrest.

We don't know how good CL can be. The decision that needs to be made is whether we give up on him now, or whether to be patient and give him a bit longer. There are lots of examples of managers who have needed a bit longer, and have come good. I think CL has shown signs of promise and needs a bit longer.

 

[Durham Fox]

No.

But if we sack him now we might never find out how good he is, that's the point I'm trying to make - just like Fergie etc might not have gone on to achieve what they did if they'd been sacked as soon as there was a bit of fans unrest.

We don't know how good CL can be. The decision that needs to be made is whether we give up on him now, or whether to be patient and give him a bit longer. There are lots of examples of managers who have needed a bit longer, and have come good. I think CL has shown signs of promise and needs a bit longer.

Can we afford to get relegated finding out?

 

[PFKAKTF FOX]

No.

But if we sack him now we might never find out how good he is, that's the point I'm trying to make - just like Fergie etc might not have gone on to achieve what they did if they'd been sacked as soon as there was a bit of fans unrest.

We don't know how good CL can be. The decision that needs to be made is whether we give up on him now, or whether to be patient and give him a bit longer. There are lots of examples of managers who have needed a bit longer, and have come good. I think CL has shown signs of promise and needs a bit longer.

Good post Webbo, and I can understand what you saying, but also bearing in mind our position and form, can we afford to perservere with him and actually end up finding he is as bad as we are now fearing.

The problem with Levein, is that because he has done a lot of good off the pitch so to speak, reducing the budget, lowering the age of the squad and bringing through academy players through the reserves and then first team, his reign hasnt been a total and utter disaster, but the results on the pitch are appalling and there is very few clubs that would have stood by Levein based on the results we have achieved over his tenure.

I still believe Levein would make an excellent Director of Football as stated in a post a few weeks back, he would certainly then be able to continue his blue print and improve things right the way through the club, which does appear to be his strength, and he would certainly justify the role, as oppose to Bassett who just sat there negotiating one year deals with Geriatrics. I actually believe he is more suited to that role than that of manager, whether a solution could be found so we could move Levein into that kind of role and then reshuffle the backroom staff, this may be the cheapest way of financing change and without the massive upheaval many are fearing.

So the possible set up could be :

Director of Football - Craig Levein

Head Coach - Rob Kelly

Assistant - Dion Dublin (Not sure about this one but could be used as a motivator, we do seem to be lacking in that area )

Coaches - Sack Houston and Black, and replace with 2 experienced English based coaches.

At least this way we may well get the change's on the field, we so desperately need, and we keep Levein at the club to continue reshaping the whole set up, but with 2 new coaches it would provide some fresh ideas and impetus but without all the upheaval. And would be a fairly cheap way of doing it.

 

[bocadillo]

Fecking hell Boc you really must think before posting something like that. I am not asking for CL's head (yet) but reading posts like this might just turn me. As a fan I go to EVERY match expecting a win. If I didn't WTF am I doing going? I could never go to a match thinking there was not a small chance of winning, despite who we are playing. I have witnessed the double against Liverpool in a season when we got relegated, I have seen us win at Old Trafford, the first team to do so in ages. I have also seen Harlow town beat us. I know at sometime we need to rest players, so why does he not come out and say that.
Going by that theory then, are we to expect the youth side to be turned out against Spurs? I can see the point in resting players, but I dont think we can exercise that luxury too much in our position. We need points and lots of them, are we going to get them if we dont field our strongest side?

Then you're a fool! The most I would admit to is that I go to every game HOPING for a win. In reality I think I probably go because I am hopelessly addicted and because I like to be part of the occasion - a witness, if you like.

I can not imagine that CL would have played that team at Reading other then in a 4 games-in-7 days situation - and that's why I am willing to cut him a little slack on it. We have even had Premiership managers resting players for these games and at least one bemoaning the fact that he would not have had to rest certain players if he had known that the next match was going to be postponed.

 

[bocadillo]

Also what games can we win these days, I thought Crewe and Millwall were bankers.....

Yes.

 

[glyn]

I'd like to know from Boc and Webbo what you would think about the situation if we got at most a point or two from the weekend's matches?

 

[glyn]

So the possible set up could be :

Director of Football - Craig Levein

Head Coach - Rob Kelly

Assistant - Dion Dublin (Not sure about this one but could be used as a motivator, we do seem to be lacking in that area )

Coaches - Sack Houston and Black, and replace with 2 experienced English based coaches.

as I've said in an earlier thread I think the whole Director of Football nonsense is a complete waste of time, and is basically only used to keep someone in employment. I can't think of a single situation where it has worked, yet it is touted about everytime we (or anyone else) are thinking of getting a new manager.

Also the young/old combo is a myth....Micky Adams had done very well at Fulham without needing any help from Bassett so I would have imagined he would have done just as well here without DB being in place.

Another option always mentioned is bringing in another 'young manager with potential'. Wasn't that what we had in Taylor, Adams and now Levein?

Basically none of the 'formulas' I've described are guaranteed to work, so we should concentrate on getting the right man (one man - a manager) in whatever his age or experience.