"There is no racism in football"

[Macky]

I sent out identical CVs from one 'Paul Ince' and one 'Desmond Nignog' to all these clubs requesting a job in any footballing capacity. .

PissUpon Out!!1!!11 Nignog In!!!!!1111

 

[Miles Away]

View attachment 11549

If you're going to do that at least do it right:

 

[Blue Maniac]

If you're going to do that at least do it right:

 

[MerseyFox]

I have attempted to get funding for a large scale investigation into random statements from ill informed people, featuring a specific analysis of mindless assertions of racism in any circumstance where someone, for their own purposes, asserts it to be a factor.

Unfortunately, it was rejected on the basis that it could be perceived as racist.

Instead, I contacted representatives of the owners of all forty four clubs in the top two divisions of English football. Only one of which have deemed a black man to be worthy of the position of manager; the racist pigs. This has proved trickier than I originally thought. Largely because most of these clubs are foreign owned so translating my questions into the respective languages of China, Russia, Italy, Pakistan, Serbia, Kuwait, Latvia, Iceland, Switzerland, India, UAE, Thailand, Egypt and Iran has taken some time.

I remain undeterred though. As Mersey Fox so ably put it, having an overtly black name such as 'Chris Powell' must be holding our exceptionally talented, black skinned, brothers back. It simply must be true. This brings me to the second part of the study. I sent out identical CVs from one 'Paul Ince' and one 'Desmond Nignog' to all these clubs requesting a job in any footballing capacity. To date, I regret to inform you that Paul Ince isn't proving popular in comparison to Desmond. Apparently, clubs have some knowledge of the skills of a real person called Paul Ince and so have decided to make decisions based on this. Damn it! Our Desmond on the other hand, is in heavy demand. In fact, I'm thinking of blacking myself up in a hilarious Mrs. Doutfire type way and earning myself a fortune.

I'll keep you informed.

Ahhh I forgot the real reason is because these people aren't intelligent to do the job or go for an interview. Frankly the fact that there are not a lot of black coaches (they can run and kick a ball but not tell other people how to do it) is simply do to the meritocracy of football. Quite clearly there are only a few exception ethic minorities that can do the job.

To bastardize a quote - when average minority people get the same opportunity as average white people then there is no racism.

 

[Brown Nose]

Ahhh I forgot the real reason is because these people aren't intelligent to do the job or go for an interview. Frankly the fact that there are not a lot of black coaches (they can run and kick a ball but not tell other people how to do it) is simply do to the meritocracy of football. Quite clearly there are only a few exception ethic minorities that can do the job.

To bastardize a quote - when average minority people get the same opportunity as average white people then there is no racism.

Nope, you've done it again. You've taken an unproved assumption and run away with it.

English football is a cold, hard, meritocracy. If you seriously believe that a club looking to appoint a manager with no experience is going to eliminate a candidate on the basis that their skin is a different colour, so be it. But I really don't believe that is true. The advocates of this opinion in the game are former black players who are bitter at not getting a break. There are proportionately many more white former players that are just as bitter.

There have been a few journeyman black managers, such as Keith Curle, Keith Alexander, Paul Ince. Clubs have not demonstrated a lack of interest in reappointing these average managers over and over again because they're black. If Jose Mourinho's skin was slightly darker and he came from somewhere slightly further south, do you seriously think clubs wouldn't walk over hot coals if they could get him because of his colour?

Yes racism exists. Yes it still exists in some jobs markets. But there is no evidence that it is a factor in our football managerial appointments. All I've heard and seen is assumption and it's lazy. Prove it or drop it. You may just as well say that clubs are anti-Welsh because there are too few Welsh managers.

Anyway, to move this on a bit. If you were able to prove that racism exists in some vague and unlikely way, what do you propose to do about it?

 

[Jeff]

If you seriously believe that a club looking to appoint a manager with no experience is going to eliminate a candidate on the basis that their skin is a different colour, so be it. But I really don't believe that is true.

I think it's unlikely, but there may be no racism amongst the people appointing managers. But even if that's the case it doesn't mean racism isn't what's preventing more black players from going on to become managers.

Very few players end their career and then immediately become managers. They'll go on coaching courses, they'll coach youth teams, reserve teams etc, to getthe experience they need. If they're not being given the chance to do that they're never get to the level where they can go on to apply for bigger jobs.

There have been a few journeyman black managers, such as Keith Curle, Keith Alexander, Paul Ince. Clubs have not demonstrated a lack of interest in reappointing these average managers over and over again because they're black.

When Keith Curle took over at Carlisle he'd not had a job for 19 months, despite applying for quite a few.
Carlisle had not won in 15 games. They had the worst defence in the division, and the worst goal difference by a long way. Since he took over they've scored nine goals and conceded none. So that makes me wonder why he wasn't given much time at his previous clubs, and why he's been out of the game for so long.

 

[Jeff]

A quote from Ron Noades when he was chairman of Crystal Palace:

"The black players at this club lend the side a lot of skill and flair, but you also need white players in there to balance things up and give the team some brains and some common sense."

If other chairmen share his views, how many of them are going to appoint black coaches and managers?

 

[MerseyFox]

English football has never been a cold hard meritocracy, by stating it is such you are therefore implying that the reason why minorities don't get jobs (and we are not just talking managers posts, we are talking about backroom staff and coaching roles) is that they are just not good enough, don't have the same talent as their white counterparts. It is good to see that all of the coaches and managers in football are the best at what they do.

No-one in this day and age is going to say "i am not giving this guy an interview or the job because they are black" you will rarely get such overt racism (at least not in public) but what you get is - well he is under qualified, he has no experience, he won't fit in with the ethos of the club. The reason why the study of CV is telling is that the CV's were identical and sent to the same people. Therefore the experiences and qualifications were the same, and hence the conclusion that the reason for the lack of interviews was the name.

 

[Brown Nose]

I think it's unlikely, but there may be no racism amongst the people appointing managers. But even if that's the case it doesn't mean racism isn't what's preventing more black players from going on to become managers.

It doesn't mean it is either and to make an accusation of racism is different. It is an assertion that there are people out there deliberately doing illegal and idiotic things. It's the assumption that it exists that annoys me, the evidence is feeble. To say racism is in evidence holds more responsibility than to say it isn't.

 

[Brown Nose]

Very few players end their career and then immediately become managers. They'll go on coaching courses, they'll coach youth teams, reserve teams etc, to getthe experience they need. If they're not being given the chance to do that they're never get to the level where they can go on to apply for bigger jobs..

If proved, this is a very good point. I've already referenced this in an earlier post. Somebody please show me the proportion of people from different racial groups attending courses, applying for jobs with equivalent skills and failing because of skin colour and I'll be as furious about it as other people already are. But as far as I can see at this moment, it's an assumption without any evidence.

 

[Brown Nose]

When Keith Curle took over at Carlisle he'd not had a job for 19 months, despite applying for quite a few.
Carlisle had not won in 15 games. They had the worst defence in the division, and the worst goal difference by a long way. Since he took over they've scored nine goals and conceded none. So that makes me wonder why he wasn't given much time at his previous clubs, and why he's been out of the game for so long.

Sorry, as an isolated example that means nothing. There are dozens of factors that could be responsible for this.

 

[Brown Nose]

A quote from Ron Noades when he was chairman of Crystal Palace:

"The black players at this club lend the side a lot of skill and flair, but you also need white players in there to balance things up and give the team some brains and some common sense."

If other chairmen share his views, how many of them are going to appoint black coaches and managers?

"If other chairman share his views" - can you see what's wrong with this?

I don't condone Noades one bit, I'd go as far as to say he was a twat. However, it would be fair to balance this with his response which was that he was set up and several notable black players (one of two of whom have never been shy about shouting racism) defended him and his tolerance.

 

[Brown Nose]

English football has never been a cold hard meritocracy, by stating it is such you are therefore implying that the reason why minorities don't get jobs (and we are not just talking managers posts, we are talking about backroom staff and coaching roles) is that they are just not good enough, don't have the same talent as their white counterparts. It is good to see that all of the coaches and managers in football are the best at what they do.

No-one in this day and age is going to say "i am not giving this guy an interview or the job because they are black" you will rarely get such overt racism (at least not in public) but what you get is - well he is under qualified, he has no experience, he won't fit in with the ethos of the club. The reason why the study of CV is telling is that the CV's were identical and sent to the same people. Therefore the experiences and qualifications were the same, and hence the conclusion that the reason for the lack of interviews was the name.

I think I've countered all those arguments elsewhere in the thread, either directly or indirectly. Suffice to say that I don't condone racism and would be very vocal against it were it to be proved. I would never argue that black people don't get on in coaching/management because they're not good enough.

 

[Jeff]

"If other chairman share his views" - can you see what's wrong with this?

Yes. The other racist chairmen haven't been stupid enough to admit it in public. Do you think he's the only one?

 

[Brown Nose]

Yes. The other racist chairmen haven't been stupid enough to admit it in public. Do you think he's the only one?

Well, for a start he isn't a chairman on account of the fact that he's dead. He used to be one, most notably a generation ago in an era when racism in the game was certainly more in evidence. This doesn't have any relevance to the original point here that the reason we only have two black managers in our professional league is because of racism.

I have no idea if any current owner/chairman is racist. It may be that some are prejudiced towards groups but it's highly likely to be much more complex than an anti-black bias. We may actually have owners that have an anti-white english manager bias.

The point is, you're making the accusation not me. So why do I have to prove there aren't any? Surely, it is for you to prove the opposite.

 

[Jeff]

The point is, you're making the accusation not me. So why do I have to prove there aren't any? Surely, it is for you to prove the opposite.

The stats suggest there's racism. The fact that a number black of ex players have had to go abroad to get jobs suggest racism. The fact that society is racist, and football is part of that society, suggests there's racism in football. You'd have to be naive to think there's no racism.

 

[MerseyFox]

I think I've countered all those arguments elsewhere in the thread, either directly or indirectly. Suffice to say that I don't condone racism and would be very vocal against it were it to be proved. I would never argue that black people don't get on in coaching/management because they're not good enough.

But you have stated that English football is meritocratic - by definition it means that you have reached your position by merit ie you are better than any other person for the job, therefore it follows that the people who don't get the job aren't good enough.

 

[Brown Nose]

The stats suggest there's racism. The fact that a number black of ex players have had to go abroad to get jobs suggest racism. The fact that society is racist, and football is part of that society, suggests there's racism in football. You'd have to be naive to think there's no racism.

But you have stated that English football is meritocratic - by definition it means that you have reached your position by merit ie you are better than any other person for the job, therefore it follows that the people who don't get the job aren't good enough.

More assumptions with nothing to back them up.

 

[SwedeFox]

More assumptions with nothing to back them up.

Racism isn't just about a chairman making a choice based on skin colour. It's about attitudes on every level leading up to that. 2% of Football League managers are black. Do you genuinely believe that is the result of a true meritocracy where black people are given a fair chance at every level?

 

[Brown Nose]

Do you genuinely believe that is the result of a true meritocracy where black people are given a fair chance at every level?

I believe that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the current crop of owners and chairmen consider the colour of someone's skin to be a factor in their decision making when it comes to appointing staff.

It doesn't matter how many times posters say the same thing over and over again, they back it up with nothing of significance. Consider your assertion in the context of a court of law. You'd be laughed out of the place.

You're saying that it's due to racist owners/chairmen that there are so few black managers. I say that is a lame and frankly disrespectful attitude based on out-dated and weak assumptions. Just consider the many and varied nationalities and cultures represented in our boardrooms nowadays. Just because something may have been a factor in the past, doesn't mean it still has to be now.