Brexit

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I went into a butcher’s and said ‘Have you got a pig’s head?’

He said ‘No, it’s the way I part my hair’
 
I can’t begin to imagine the lack dignity most people in the country will show if they can’t get their frozen turkeys or barrels of chocolates easily in time for Christmas.

It going to be bog roll plus fuel shortage times a million.
 
Matt_B said:
Johnson is popular for the same reason Farage is. His idiotic bluster, the fact he just says what he thinks and it's often inappropriate means he's "a man of the people". Nevermind his millions and the fact he couldn't give a shit about us oiks, he says the kind of bigoted nonsense that, unfortunately, large parts of the population think but daren't say.
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Some interesting posts from a member I have always respected.

Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are both remarkable politicians. Johnson is the only man to gave won the Mayorship of London for the Conservatives. Traditional Labour voters in the Red Wall seats wanted to have selfies taken with him. He is often compared to Trump but this is silly and largely because of his hair. The real comparison should be with another election winner - Ronald Reagan. He makes a lot of his natural opponents laugh. He seems "comfortable in his own skin". He passes "the pub test" - I would have enjoyed his company in a pub. Keir Starmer would be dull company and Jeremy Corbyn would not fit in at all. Nigel Farage is even more remarkable in that he led the most successful campaign since the AntiCorn Law League without even being in Parliament. Whether this is a good or bad thing it is far too soon to say.
Matt_B said:
Nonsense. There were plenty of options, people chose this shit show. Your excuse is just a way for them to shirk any responsibility for the shit we're being served up.
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Obviously you are right. People could have voted for the Socialist Workers or the BNP. Thank goodness they did not. Sometimes you choose the least bad alternative. Caroline Flint the excellent Labour MP for Doncaster lost her seat. She said people wanted to vote for her "but can you be sure Corbyn will not become Prime Minister." For the first time since 1983 I felt unable to vote Labour in a General Election. .
Matt_B said:
And let's not forget, if you listen to oldie-wonks describe how much better life was when everyone looked after each other and nobody robbed or killed and cats never chased mice etc, they are describing a largely socialist society (ignoring the fact it was never as halcyon as they say). But give them the option to vote socialist and they run a mile because it's been poisoned as a word by politicians and the media.
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Wonderful. I enjoyed the use of the phrase "old wonks" by somebody who feels Johnson's comments are inappropriate. A touch of hypocrisy there Matt. I don't think any Old Worn would want to return to the old days; they are entitled to say that for them personally life was better without the problems of old age - aches, funerals and in my case being unable to travel or attend football matches. It is certainly true that there was a greater sense of community in the old days. People in your street had often been to the same school, worked in the same factory and knew your parents. The motor car, the decline of heavy industry and youngsters from less well off homes getting to university have cut into the sense of community. The loss of community is a heavy price but may have been worth paying.

I do not want to be rude Matt but I detect an impression of "sureness" in your posts Hopefully this is a false impression.
 
David Gwilliam said:
. The motor car, the decline of heavy industry and youngsters from less well off homes getting to university have cut into the sense of community. The loss of community is a heavy price but may have been worth paying.
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No mention of Thatcherism in regards to the death of community, David?
 
e
pork pie fox said:
No mention of Thatcherism in regards to the death of community, David?
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So many people learned their politics under Thatcher. that there is a temptation to give her credit or blame that she did not deserve. It is true that Thatcher had no sense of community - can you imagine Churchill's reaction if somebody told him "There is no such things as society,"

However, she was not to blame for the loss of community. This took place well before Thatcher. It ended under Harold Macmillan (Conservative) and Harold Wilson (Labour) . Ironically both Prime Ministers were passionately in favour of communities but the progress they made ended communities.
 
David Gwilliam said:
Some interesting posts from a member I have always respected.

Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are both remarkable politicians. Johnson is the only man to gave won the Mayorship of London for the Conservatives. Traditional Labour voters in the Red Wall seats wanted to have selfies taken with him. He is often compared to Trump but this is silly and largely because of his hair. The real comparison should be with another election winner - Ronald Reagan. He makes a lot of his natural opponents laugh. He seems "comfortable in his own skin". He passes "the pub test" - I would have enjoyed his company in a pub. Keir Starmer would be dull company and Jeremy Corbyn would not fit in at all. Nigel Farage is even more remarkable in that he led the most successful campaign since the AntiCorn Law League without even being in Parliament. Whether this is a good or bad thing it is far too soon to say.

Obviously you are right. People could have voted for the Socialist Workers or the BNP. Thank goodness they did not. Sometimes you choose the least bad alternative. Caroline Flint the excellent Labour MP for Doncaster lost her seat. She said people wanted to vote for her "but can you be sure Corbyn will not become Prime Minister." For the first time since 1983 I felt unable to vote Labour in a General Election. .


Wonderful. I enjoyed the use of the phrase "old wonks" by somebody who feels Johnson's comments are inappropriate. A touch of hypocrisy there Matt. I don't think any Old Worn would want to return to the old days; they are entitled to say that for them personally life was better without the problems of old age - aches, funerals and in my case being unable to travel or attend football matches. It is certainly true that there was a greater sense of community in the old days. People in your street had often been to the same school, worked in the same factory and knew your parents. The motor car, the decline of heavy industry and youngsters from less well off homes getting to university have cut into the sense of community. The loss of community is a heavy price but may have been worth paying.

I do not want to be rude Matt but I detect an impression of "sureness" in your posts Hopefully this is a false impression.
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No idea about Reagan, he was was before my time. Both Johnson and Trump were elected on waves of anti-establishment sentiment, in my opinion, largely because they both treat the truth like it's a nicety, and aren't afraid to change their stance on things to progress. Johnson has flipped on whether Brexit is a good thing depending on what got him the most votes. You only have to look at his personal life, and the fact his whole messy image is manicured, to know what kind of twat he is.

Oldie-wonks is just a silly term for grumpy old people in general, if you think that's on a similar level to comparing women in hajibs to letterboxes and so on, I really don't know what to say.

Obviously Caroline Flint will try to blame somebody else for her performance, it's an easy and lazy thing to do. Corbyn wasn't perfect, neither is Starmer, but it's hard to imagine either being more corrupt and less humane than the shit show we've suffered over the last 18 months. I could never being myself to vote Tory, but if you offered 5 more years in exchange for having May or Cameron handle the pandemic from the start, I'd snap you hands off.

I've resigned myself to the fact that the Tories will be in charge for most of my life, the Brits are gluttons for punishment, but that doesn't mean we still have to accept whatever shit they serve us and whatever inadequate scrotums they put into positions.
 
David Gwilliam said:
So many people learned their politics under Thatcher.
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They pick and choose, Thatcher saw the merits of the common market, none of the current shower dare mention it

Whether you liked her or not, Thatcher was principled, hard-working, pro Europe, had a science degree and sacked ministers caught breaking ministerial code

Boris is none of the above
 
Matt_B said:
No idea about Reagan, he was was before my time. Both Johnson and Trump were elected on waves of anti-establishment sentiment, in my opinion, largely because they both treat the truth like it's a nicety, and aren't afraid to change their stance on things to progress. Johnson has flipped on whether Brexit is a good thing depending on what got him the most votes. You only have to look at his personal life, and the fact his whole messy image is manicured, to know what kind of twat he is.

Oldie-wonks is just a silly term for grumpy old people in general, if you think that's on a similar level to comparing women in hajibs to letterboxes and so on, I really don't know what to say.


I've resigned myself to the fact that the Tories will be in charge for most of my life, the Brits are gluttons for punishment, but that doesn't mean we still have to accept whatever shit they serve us and whatever inadequate scrotums they put into positions.
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We are getting off topic but bigotry should always be challenged.

I thought the phrase "0od wonks" was merely thoughtless targeting of a group. . The phrase "grumpy old people" suggests you have learned nothing. My guess is that if somebody wrote about Asian wonks or gay wonks - grumpy Asians or grumpy gays? - you would challenge their bigotry.

It seemed from your posts that you were interested in American politics so I was disconcerted that you should write "No idea about Reagan , he was before my time". Trump or more importantly Trump supporters did not come out of nowhere - they are products of the culture wars which were there long before Trump and as Texas shows is there after Trump. There are masses of books on American politics and YouTube is a valuable resource and not just for those who find reading difficult.

Your post - especially the last sentence - may be the result of disappointment If you find the past difficult you find predicting the future far more so. . I hope you life will be a long one in which case the Conservatives will regularly lose elections, Twice in my lifetime - 1959 and 1992 - it seemed that the Conservatives would be in power forever; in each case Labour learned the lessons and won the next election.
 
I'm late to this thread - given the number of pages, I've read the first few and last few pages.

It feels to me like we could dig this thread out in 20 years and it would be an excellent case study in why Brexit happened, why there wasn't a second referendum and why, if there were another referendum tomorrow, Brexit would likely win again.

@Darth Vodka's attitude, and frankly his rudeness, to people's lived experience is exactly why Brexit won. The FT has been anti-Brexit since day one and, yes, there's loads of evidence to support being in the EU - however, some people's real world experience was that they did not feel the benefits and therefore had no reason to support it.

The failure of large parts of the country to understand the strong motivations behind Brexit, other than to call people racists, is exactly why is wasn't stopped (although the weakest and worst opposition in modern political history did also impact).

The terrible productivity of this country is, in part, due to it being cheaper to bring in low cost labour than to invest in high tech, high cost, machinery or automation. However much you dislike the PM, he's not wrong when he says that underinvestment in some of these industries is why it's so hard to recruit UK based staff to them, and right now, HGV drivers are the hot topic - but no doubt in the future it'll be some other profession. I find it interesting how willing people are to see foreign nationals accept those conditions and pay without comment.

The question is, who should be improving those conditions? The government are making it clear that they believe it's the job of industry to do it. You may disagree. But if you operate in a capitalist economy, where those who will profit from more drivers will be haulage firms, then maybe they should be paying in? Thing is, because of unlimited cheap labour, they haven't had to.

My point being; the inability of some comments in this thread to see that there are a multitude of factors that are impacting on these things, but rather simply blaming Brexit as the singular issue is bizarre, depressing and quite counterproductive .
 
Fox Fan said:
@Darth Vodka's attitude, and frankly his rudeness, to people's lived experience is exactly why Brexit won.
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yeah, it was me

you appear to have correctly analysed the entire event, congratulations on your thesis
 
People's "life experiences" do not mean their opinions are correct. If it's rude to point out facts, yeah I am rude. Grow a pair
 
Fox Fan said:
The terrible productivity of this country is, in part, due to it being cheaper to bring in low cost labour than to invest in high tech, high cost, machinery or automation.
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Wait, low labout cost = bad productivity?
 
>people's real world experience was that they did not feel the benefits and therefore had no reason to support it

I'm reminded of the Brexit film where some focus group chavvy woman has a breakdown that nobody cares that her life is shit

And then a remainer says, exasperated, "what's that got to do with the EU?"

But at that point, Brexit is lost

People were angry. They cared not for facts, or trade and, given an hour to Google it, couldn't tell you what GDP stood for, but they knew their life was shit and maybe this was a chance to kick someone up the arse

Well bravo, you won. Enjoy the stagflation
 
Darth Vodka said:
>people's real world experience was that they did not feel the benefits and therefore had no reason to support it

I'm reminded of the Brexit film where some focus group chavvy woman has a breakdown that nobody cares that her life is shit

And then a remainer says, exasperated, "what's that got to do with the EU?"

But at that point, Brexit is lost

People were angry. They cared not for facts, or trade and, given an hour to Google it, couldn't tell you what GDP stood for, but they knew their life was shit and maybe this was a chance to kick someone up the arse

Well bravo, you won. Enjoy the stagflation
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Yes, you have managed to ‘can’ all of the leave vote together succinctly and accurately.

Obviously, you are correct and there seems little point in any of the leave ‘racists’ presenting a differing opinion to yours.

Perhaps if you weren’t so pig headed and arrogant your brain would calculate that not all arguments are about a single factor?
 
camberwell fox said:
Yes, you have managed to ‘can’ all of the leave vote together succinctly and accurately.

Obviously, you are correct and there seems little point in any of the leave ‘racists’ presenting a differing opinion to yours.

Perhaps if you weren’t so pig headed and arrogant your brain would calculate that not all arguments are about a single factor?
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when did i saw i was trying to can all leavers into one category?

when did i say there was a single factor?

try reading my arguments before going ad hominem
 
yeah, a lot of snowflakery and name calling when opinions are challenged.... and strangely, no coherent arguments against or, say, quoted studies that prove arguments wrong
 
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