Brexit

[camberwell fox]

Dutch withdrawal from the European Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After Brexit when the Dutch were fairly level leave/remain opinion has swung to 75% remain

You really are a bore, only child per chance?

 

[Payne74]

Dutch withdrawal from the European Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After Brexit when the Dutch were fairly level leave/remain opinion has swung to 75% remain

That's because they have seen plenty of the British media hyping the woes of Brexit on a daily basis, when it settles down that will be the real test.
In my job I work in Holland, Belgium, France and Spain and Holland is having problems with cheap foreign labour mainly from Romania and Bulgaria undercutting the local market.
When I work over in Holland It's not a nice atmosphere its a proper pressure pot and something is going to give

 

[Darth Vodka]

That's because they have seen plenty of the British media hyping the woes of Brexit on a daily basis, when it settles down that will be the real test.
In my job I work in Holland, Belgium, France and Spain and Holland is having problems with cheap foreign labour mainly from Romania and Bulgaria undercutting the local market.
When I work over in Holland It's not a nice atmosphere its a proper pressure pot and something is going to give

Sure, they watch the British Media in Holland relentlessly might have known it was the BBC or something

 

[Darth Vodka]

You really are a bore, only child per chance?

I’m a bore for countering a point with studies proving the point utterly wrong?

Tell you what a bore is, someone who has nothing to add to an argument apart from childish name calling and follows the thread slavishly, but doesn’t have the wit to join in like an adult

 

[Darth Vodka]

Also, going ad hominem …. You’ve lost already

 

[Darth Vodka]

Sure, they watch the British Media in Holland relentlessly might have known it was the BBC or something

It’s also a weird defence to say that people in Holland only believe Brexit is shit because of… all the news stories about it being shit

erm yeah, ok, maybe if the media stopped reporting the outages and staff shortages and petrol queues, the swines

 

[Darth Vodka]

Also, I think that not only are the EU27 countries looking at what the UK is doing and seeing exiting the EU as going badly...

But they would be a lot less likely to either grant a referendum in the first place, or if they did, give some thought to changing the questions to allow for a choice of how to exit

So not just a binary in/out, but more of a nuanced.... exit but stay in Single Market/Customs union, exit with no deal, exit with a deal negotiated on the fly

That way they could leave but not inflict so much damage, like Northern Ireland

 

[FOX Franks]

A point made a little while ago but still valid - much like recent general elections, the side of remain / labour to me feels like they lose because the rhetoric seems to be if you don't agree with them, you're an idiot/haven't researched properly/you don't know what you're talking about.

All well and good, and often true, but surprisingly, telling people they are idiots does not warm them to you.

Both collectives need to understand their opponent and what the people actually want and perhaps go for that rather than standing on a very high horse mocking those who aren't interested in politics or social equality.

 

[M17TT C]

****ing hell, what a melt.

So the reason was because some other people called you names?

And then you go on to say that those names are often true?

No wonder the country is ****ed.

 

[Darth Vodka]

Telling people they are idiots does not warm them to you.

Both collectives need to understand their opponent and what the people actually want and perhaps go for that rather than standing on a very high horse mocking those who aren't interested in politics or social equality.

Why would I want idiots to warm to me? I'm not standing as a Tory MP

 

[Darth Vodka]

Intel says Brexit means UK not an option for new European chip plant

The head of the US firm, Pat Gelsinger, said it would have considered the UK but was now looking at 'getting support from the EU' for sites.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Daily Mail (!) says Intel isn't considering the UK for the new chip factory, because of Brexit

Maybe the DM doesn't believe hard enough or something

 

[Fox Fan]

Makes a point:

A point made a little while ago but still valid - much like recent general elections, the side of remain / labour to me feels like they lose because the rhetoric seems to be if you don't agree with them, you're an idiot/haven't researched properly/you don't know what you're talking about.

All well and good, and often true, but surprisingly, telling people they are idiots does not warm them to you.

Both collectives need to understand their opponent and what the people actually want and perhaps go for that rather than standing on a very high horse mocking those who aren't interested in politics or social equality.

Proves a point:

****ing hell, what a melt.

So the reason was because some other people called you names?

And then you go on to say that those names are often true?

No wonder the country is ****ed.

Why would I want idiots to warm to me? I'm not standing as a Tory MP

 

[Payne74]

Sure, they watch the British Media in Holland relentlessly might have known it was the BBC or something

They do keep up more than you might think, I spent a couple of weeks working in Rotterdam in the LNG storage facility and the majority of people I worked with /meet were interested in Brexit and how it was working out, the Dutch truck drivers are in a worse state then the UK with the majority of hgv drivers coming from Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria.
The Dutch people have the same issues we had with cheap foreign labour.
Anyway I can only go on what the people living and working there are telling me but perhaps they are all the minority I spoke to and the rest of the nation loves the EU and all the cheap labour it brings

 

[Darth Vodka]

Makes a point:


Proves a point:

At what point did i call someone on here an idiot?

I think you'll find most of the name calling has been done...to me

 

[M17TT C]

But it makes no logical sense.

The premises is literally, 'I'm voting for the others as some people called me names even though I do agree that those names are often true'

How does that make sense?

 

[Darth Vodka]

They do keep up more than you might think, I spent a couple of weeks working in Rotterdam in the LNG storage facility and the majority of people I worked with /meet were interested in Brexit and how it was working out, the Dutch truck drivers are in a worse state then the UK with the majority of hgv drivers coming from Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria.
The Dutch people have the same issues we had with cheap foreign labour.
Anyway I can only go on what the people living and working there are telling me but perhaps they are all the minority I spoke to and the rest of the nation loves the EU and all the cheap labour it brings

Watching it or not, that doesn't make the media reporting wrong

 

[Darth Vodka]

I can only go on what the people living and working there are telling me but perhaps they are all the minority I spoke to and the rest of the nation loves the EU and all the cheap labour it brings

Indeed, 75% of them do according to the polls

 

[Payne74]

No the media are 100% correct in everything

Oh yes the polls where you can twist the narrative to suit your agenda. If you asked 1000 people living in London what they think of Brexit you'll get a completely different set of results if you asked 1000 people from Immingham

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

But it makes no logical sense.

The premises is literally, 'I'm voting for the others as some people called me names even though I do agree that those names are often true'

How does that make sense?

I'm sure all will become clear by 2041 or so, which is probably the earliest we'll have a vote on applying for membership again.

 

[pork pie fox]

I'm late to this thread - given the number of pages, I've read the first few and last few pages.

It feels to me like we could dig this thread out in 20 years and it would be an excellent case study in why Brexit happened, why there wasn't a second referendum and why, if there were another referendum tomorrow, Brexit would likely win again.

@Darth Vodka's attitude, and frankly his rudeness, to people's lived experience is exactly why Brexit won. The FT has been anti-Brexit since day one and, yes, there's loads of evidence to support being in the EU - however, some people's real world experience was that they did not feel the benefits and therefore had no reason to support it.

The failure of large parts of the country to understand the strong motivations behind Brexit, other than to call people racists, is exactly why is wasn't stopped (although the weakest and worst opposition in modern political history did also impact).

The terrible productivity of this country is, in part, due to it being cheaper to bring in low cost labour than to invest in high tech, high cost, machinery or automation. However much you dislike the PM, he's not wrong when he says that underinvestment in some of these industries is why it's so hard to recruit UK based staff to them, and right now, HGV drivers are the hot topic - but no doubt in the future it'll be some other profession. I find it interesting how willing people are to see foreign nationals accept those conditions and pay without comment.

The question is, who should be improving those conditions? The government are making it clear that they believe it's the job of industry to do it. You may disagree. But if you operate in a capitalist economy, where those who will profit from more drivers will be haulage firms, then maybe they should be paying in? Thing is, because of unlimited cheap labour, they haven't had to.

My point being; the inability of some comments in this thread to see that there are a multitude of factors that are impacting on these things, but rather simply blaming Brexit as the singular issue is bizarre, depressing and quite counterproductive .

Hopefully the government will also take the lead and increase wages for public sector workers at the same time too........