Ched Evans

[ChrisFilter]

This thread is incredibly depressing. I sometimes wonder if I am actually of the same species as some people

It really is. It's put me right off this place.

 

[Mawsley]

http://newsthump.com/2015/01/08/ched-evans-to-get-oldham-fc-drunk-and-sign-for-them-anyway/

 

[David Gwilliam]

What an interesting thread. To pick up just a few points.

Evans not apologising is a matter for him. An apology needs to be voluntary or it is worthless.

Footballers have a special status that goes with the job. That is why those at the top end are paid so much. I do not see youngsters going round with the name of their newsagent or butcher on their t-shirt. Behaving well is a small price to pay for the perks of being a footballer. To take an earlier case I would not have wanted to see a child wearing a Leicester shirt that said "Marlon King" . I felt Robbie Savage was despicable and found it difficult to support him and he had broken no law. I want Leicester to uphold certain standards and no doubt fans of other clubs feel the same.

Even outside football it is difficult for ex-convicts to get jobs. I asked the boss of a small coaster firm whether she would ever employ anyone with a prison record and she emphatically said "No. Why would I when I get any number of applicants without one. And people would be uncomfortable working with someone who had been to prison." There are of course any number of jobs where you cannot be employed with a serious criminal record.

The argument that he has paid his debt to society and done his time seems weak. A parole board let him out early; I doubt if the victim or the victims family believe he has done his time. With many crimes such as rape, burglary and assault the debt is to the victim more than to society.

To go off topic I would be interested if anyone can correct me. In most jobs if you make an error of judgement and somebody gets badly hurt you get at the very least reprimanded. I get the impression that if Evans re-offended no action would be taken against the members of the parole board who are after all paid. . I have often thought that if a parole board takes an irresponsible decision they bear some of the guilt. At the moment they remind me of the comment made by a 1920s-30s Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin about the press "Power without responsibility the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages."

 

[NYC Fox]

To go off topic I would be interested if anyone can correct me. In most jobs if you make an error of judgement and somebody gets badly hurt you get at the very least reprimanded. I get the impression that if Evans re-offended no action would be taken against the members of the parole board who are after all paid. . I have often thought that if a parole board takes an irresponsible decision they bear some of the guilt. At the moment they remind me of the comment made by a 1920s-30s Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin about the press "Power without responsibility the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages."

That's an interesting thought, although I would think the behaviour that would likely insentivise would be fewer paroles. We might all say that's a good thing, but the prison system would collapse in that event.

 

[Blue Maniac]

Even outside football it is difficult for ex-convicts to get jobs. I asked the boss of a small coaster firm whether she would ever employ anyone with a prison record and she emphatically said "No. Why would I when I get any number of applicants without one. And people would be uncomfortable working with someone who had been to prison."

Also depressing.

 

[Macky]

In most jobs if you make an error of judgement and somebody gets badly hurt you get at the very least reprimanded. I get the impression that if Evans re-offended no action would be taken against the members of the parole board who are after all paid. . I have often thought that if a parole board takes an irresponsible decision they bear some of the guilt.

Parole boards operate within defined parameters though. So long as they adhere to those parameters, I don't see how you could fairly apportion blame in their direction, any guilt surely lies with the recidivist themself.

I thought it a slight anomaly that a sex offender is barred from directorship of a football club, but is eligible to play for a club.

 

[fitz]

I can't remember everyone going radge when kluivert signed for newcastle. He also claimed to be innocent (of causing death) so perhaps if Ched redoubles his efforts and becomes that good then his lack of remorse may be forgiven?

 

[fitz]

I thought it a slight anomaly that a sex offender is barred from directorship of a football club, but is eligible to play for a club.

Ture. Perhaps they're seen as role models for the role models?

 

[Macky]

I can't remember everyone going radge when kluivert signed for newcastle. He also claimed to be innocent (of causing death)

Aye, but in Toonland having a death on your hands is more of an honour

 

[fitz]

Aye, but in Toonland having a death on your hands is more of an honour

Its rewarded by chicken and some cans of lager delivered by gazza

 

[ChrisFilter]

I can't remember everyone going radge when kluivert signed for newcastle. He also claimed to be innocent (of causing death) so perhaps if Ched redoubles his efforts and becomes that good then his lack of remorse may be forgiven?

The world has progressed.

 

[Blue Maniac]

The world has progressed.

And also Kluivert wasn't convicted. Neither was van Persie.

 

[fitz]

The world has progressed.

Aye? It must by my age but I can't remember killing people being more acceptable ten years ago.

 

[fitz]

And also Kluivert wasn't convicted. Neither was van Persie.

He got community service...nice!

 

[Lako42]

Aye? It must by my age but I can't remember killing people being more acceptable ten years ago.

It was all the rage, quite literally.

 

[pork pie fox]

Social media has given more people a voice too. In the days of Hughes et al there wasn't the widespread access to public opinion that there is now.

 

[Blue Maniac]

He got community service...nice!

Ah of course, he killed someone didn't he?

 

[Feriol]

California has just implemented "Yes means Yes" into law for colleges. It basically says:

"Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent,"

So if the person is not reciprocating actively, or not saying anything, or barely conscious and drooling, that doesn't mean consent. Too many men would argue if they initiate sex with a woman, unless she actively protests, they it's consensual... even if she's barely conscious.

There is a huge debate over here about it - along the lines of, most sex is by nature not explicitly consensual - it's a lot of exploration and experimentation. However, the law is designed to shift social norms and expectations to what consensual sex looks like and moves the burden of proof from the accuser to the accused.

The biggest reason it's succeeded in becoming law in parts of the USA, is because of the huge numbers of sexual assaults in colleges and schools - something like 50% women experience some sort of non-consensual sexual contact.

So, On California campuses, consent is no longer a matter of not struggling or not saying no. If the student initiating the sexual encounter doesn’t receive an enthusiastic “yes,” either verbally or physically, then there is no consent. If the student is incapacitated due to drugs or alcohol, there is no consent.

In the Evans case, he claims to have recieved a yes (since she has no memory of events she cannot refute this) but it was irrelevent as she was deemed too drunk for her yes to be valid (at least this is how i understand the report posted earlier?)

This puts many people in a difficult posistion, your told yes but how are you supposed to judge if the person is capable of making that decision?

If both parties are drunk, do both go to prison for Rape?

As i mentioned before there is a very uncomfortable grey area?

Perhaps there should be different clasifications in law based on intent and awareness of the situation?

 

[fitz]

Ah of course, he killed someone didn't he?

Eh? What the frig was I or were you on about? I'm doubting myself now

 

[Lako42]

Genuine question, how did the other bloke get found not guilty if the ruling against Evans was made on the basis of her not being in a fit state to give consent?

Were the two events some hours apart?