EU referendum

[Brown Nose]

Really David?

Now I grant you that it depends upon how you define chaos - but it could be argued that all major advances come through disorder and conflict, or are essential in the protest of unfairness. The Civil Wars, emancipation, the poll tax - all periods of short to medium term chaos.

I'd say that protracted periods without chaos does nothing but breed complacency and inequality, something our society has running to its core.

But then I guess the answer to my first question is a second: how do you define dangerous?

My view exactly. Over the last couple of hundred years at least, there are far more examples of us getting better leadership and improving as a country during and following a period of chaos than during periods of calm.

 

[Dour]

My view exactly. Over the last couple of hundred years at least, there are far more examples of us getting better leadership and improving as a country during and following a period of chaos than during periods of calm.

Give a few examples, then.

 

[pork pie fox]

Caveat - I'm not aiming this post at anybody, it's more a comment on the shitefest mudslinging, that we currently have going on everywhere.

It's a pity that there wasn't a proper campaign conducted, by both sides, in the run up to the referendum. The fact that both sides chose to be extreme in the points they were trying to make, meant that reasoned debate was not possible.

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

My view exactly. Over the last couple of hundred years at least, there are far more examples of us getting better leadership and improving as a country during and following a period of chaos than during periods of calm.

Hmmm, I'll see how much more of my/our dosh the Bank of England flushes down the crapper tomorrow trying to shore up the £ in the face of this benevolent chaos before agreeing on this one.

 

[Dour]

Really David?

Now I grant you that it depends upon how you define chaos - but it could be argued that all major advances come through disorder and conflict, or are essential in the protest of unfairness. The Civil Wars, emancipation, the poll tax - all periods of short to medium term chaos.

I'd say that protracted periods without chaos does nothing but breed complacency and inequality, something our society has running to its core.

But then I guess the answer to my first question is a second: how do you define dangerous?

Chaos either begets further chaos or the imposition of order, normally by force. Civil wars are always chaotic. Where they lead to more chaos, you end up with something like Libya or Somalia. Where they lead to a forced re-imposition of order, it's more likely to be via dictatorship or one kind or another, or some other shit that takes forever to work out. We still haven't worked out the shit that the English Civil Wars left in Ireland, four centuries later. So I'm not seeing civil war as a particularly good model.

Especially when we take it to emancipation. The abolition of slavery in the UK was achieved without chaos or civil war. The abolition of slavery in America might have come out of the ACW but it was an unintended consequence of a different struggle, and the struggle for full emancipation has achieved much without 'chaos'. Similarly in South Africa - emancipation avoided chaos.

The poll tax was scarcely chaos. A bit of civil disobedience tied to a policy only the most rabid right-wing Tories wanted ended with that policy dropped by a host of Tory PM hopefuls fighting over who could drop it quickest. That isn't chaos.

The miners strike looked closer. But that achieved precisely **** all.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Really David?

Now I grant you that it depends upon how you define chaos - but it could be argued that all major advances come through disorder and conflict, or are essential in the protest of unfairness. The Civil Wars, emancipation, the poll tax - all periods of short to medium term chaos.

I'd say that protracted periods without chaos does nothing but breed complacency and inequality, something our society has running to its core.

But then I guess the answer to my first question is a second: how do you define dangerous?

Off topic but Mawsley deserves an answer and I expect evetybody else to move to more up to date matters. Anyway since the Civil War is in my special field I cannot resist answering.

Chaos causes sociery to break down. Foolish policies by Charles I led to chaos when society broke down berween 1639 and 1642. The result was a period of civil war which devastated the country from 1642 to 1645. After that you get chaos until 1660 when the divisions are papered over but not solved. When they break out again in 1688 both sides want to avoid the chaos and you get the Glorious Revolution of 1688-9 (Not glorious if you lived outside England. )The Civil War period was not a period of progress. Obviously this is a gross over-simplification

If by emancipation you mean the struggle for women's suffrage I do not count that that causing chaos - it never came close to society breaking down. Had female suffrage been delayed after the First World War that might have changed. I accept that the struggle for suffrage in 1831 did come close to a societal breakdown but the 1832 Reform Bill took the sting out of that. .

The poll tax did not come close to breaking society down, Indeed society adapted brilliantly. A by-election in Eastbourne in October 1990 showed Conservatives that the Poll Tax would cost them the next election.Its architect Margaret Thatcher was overthrown in November and the Poll Tax dismantled soon after.

Inequality is outside my area of expertise. In the 16th and 17th century it was so deep and the poor so powerless that events do not seem to have had an impact on it. It is perhaps a sign of progress that we are concerned about it today

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

Ah well, Lonesome George has just confirmed it'll be [up to] £250bn we'll be throwing away to try and stabilise the market in the coming days/weeks. Even using the preposterous Brexit lie of £350m/week to the EU, that's 15 years of contributions going down the swanny. Good job, Brexit.

 

[Brown Nose]

Ah well, Lonesome George has just confirmed it'll be [up to] £250bn we'll be throwing away to try and stabilise the market in the coming days/weeks. Even using the preposterous Brexit lie of £350m/week to the EU, that's 15 years of contributions going down the swanny. Good job, Brexit.

The 'logic' of this argument is that we should never make a decision that the money markets won't approve of. We should never do anything that the international community don't want us to do.

Goldman Sachs and friends might well run the planet in most ways. This is not a good thing for the great majority of people and it is not a reason to avoid making a decision in our best interests on one of the very few occasions when we get the chance.

Osborne talks total horseshit at the best of times. Here is another example. Nobody has done more to make our currency and market unstable than him with his preposterous premonitions (ironically probably scripted for him by Goldman Sachs) prior to the referendum,

 

[OldGit]

I really struggle with this sort of thing. Surely you know that you can use vitriolic nonsense from social media as evidence for just about anything? ....... .

Wow, sorry BN. I didn't expect a simple 3 word message to provoke such a wide ranging response.

I was referring to the forecast by Miles Away that we would be in for a bout of this sort of thing, upon which doubt had been cast.

However, if you had read the link you would have seen that this was not as you suggest an outburst of nastiness on Social media. It was real people being abused by real people. The numbers are indeed small, but I doubt that is of any comfort to a child being threatened at the school gate or a woman abused while shopping.

In the area where I live are "Polish" communities made up largely of 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations of the families of the Polish squadrons bases at RAF Northolt during WW2. They have a community centre in Hammersmith that is almost as old as me which has been vandalised and daubed with slogans suggesting they should "go back".

The conduct of sections of the "leave" campaign gave license to the xenophobes and racists to ceawl out of their burrows. Hopefully they will soon disappear again, but in the meantime their victims are unlikely to be comforted by their fears being dismissed as of little consequence

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

The 'logic' of this argument is that we should never make a decision that the money markets won't approve of. We should never do anything that the international community don't want us to do.

Goldman Sachs and friends might well run the planet in most ways. This is not a good thing for the great majority of people and it is not a reason to avoid making a decision in our best interests on one of the very few occasions when we get the chance.

Osborne talks total horseshit at the best of times. Here is another example. Nobody has done more to make our currency and market unstable than him with his preposterous premonitions (ironically probably scripted for him by Goldman Sachs) prior to the referendum,

Well at least we seem to agree that the EU isn't to blame.

 

[pork pie fox]

I think I'm probably best out of this thread, and the debate in general. Too many people (on both sides) unwilling to concede any merits of the opposing viewpoint. Divide and Conquer, as they say.

 

[homer]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...balls-is-going-on-asks-britain-20160627109859

 

[Lako42]

I think I'm probably best out of this thread, and the debate in general. Too many people (on both sides) unwilling to concede any merits of the opposing viewpoint. Divide and Conquer, as they say.

The lack of middle ground in this entire farce is what has put me off the most.

Everything is either black and white or it isn't even debated. The politicians attitude of self preservation is to blame for the current mudslinging division we are seeing and even now the parties are clambering to try and save their own bacon over prioritising the real needs of the country.


As for the younger generation taking to Facebook and social media to wet the bed and throw insults at the older generation, maybe they should spend less time trying to impress the social media world with their expert and extreme views and actually get off their arse and vote, they have their peers to blame if it didn't go their way.


It's now time to try and work out a plausible and best way forward, yet i imagine we will continue to focus our political efforts on looking backwards and saying 'what if'

 

[Real Sharapova]

The markets down again, the pound continuing to fall, no Government and no Opposition, it anyone in charge at all?

Wonderful.

 

[Mawsley]

The poll tax was scarcely chaos.

If by emancipation you mean the struggle for women's suffrage I do not count that that causing chaos

And I would count them so, it comes down to definitions and time scales. For some, chaos can be as simple as swimming in the Thames.

 

[Mawsley]

The markets down again

It's hardly end of days and 4 horsemen time.

 

[Real Sharapova]

It's hardly end of days and 4 horsemen time.

View attachment 12986

I would tend to look at the FTSE 250, as that's more representative of UK companies. As many of the FTSE 100 companies are actually foreign companies, or earn most of their money outside the UK, you would actually expect their shares prices to rise if they report in £ Sterling, as the falling £ increases their reported earnings. The FTSE 250 is down 5.5% today, and that's after the fall last Friday. I swear I can hear some horses clip clopping towards us in the distance.

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

I would tend to look at the FTSE 250, as that's more representative of UK companies. As many of the FTSE 100 companies are actually foreign companies, or earn most of their money outside the UK, you would actually expect their shares prices to rise if they report in £ Sterling, as the falling £ increases their reported earnings. The FTSE 250 is down 5.5% today, and that's after the fall last Friday. I swear I can hear some horses clip clopping towards us in the distance.

At this rate of decline we should be back in the 1950's by early 2017, all those Brexit dreams will have come true.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

Well that's the idea of a second referendum dead in the water. Wouldn't be surprised if we go for the Norway model.

 

[Real Sharapova]

Well that's the idea of a second referendum dead in the water. Wouldn't be surprised if we go for the Norway model.

The one where we pay into the EU and accept free movement of labour?