EU referendum

[Dour]

The one where we pay into the EU and accept free movement of labour?

Indeed. All those pesky workers' protections can be dispensed with though. And an end to those silly development funds in the poorest areas.

But it's going to be a bit of a hard sell given the lies told in the campaign. Yeah, actually, immigration is going to be the same. Oh, and we might have to pay a bit more than we do now, so there's not actually going to be any new spending on the NHS.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

Yep. Well what's done is done. I have a friend that moved over to Norway and has been living there for the past 2 and a half years now and he loves it. As he understands it, the main benefit of being in the EEA over being in the EU is that Norway only has to pass 20% of EU legislation and can create trade agreements with other countries which the UK is restricted on being in the EU. The question is is this worth our 'seat at the table'? Personally I think it is...

Assuming this is the route we go down. There's also talk of a bilateral trade agreement.

 

[Blaarev]

Yep. Well what's done is done. I have a friend that moved over to Norway and has been living there for the past 2 and a half years now and he loves it. As he understands it, the main benefit of being in the EEA over being in the EU is that Norway only has to pass 20% of EU legislation and can create trade agreements with other countries which the UK is restricted on being in the EU. The question is is this worth our 'seat at the table'? Personally I think it is...

Assuming this is the route we go down. There's also talk of a bilateral trade agreement.

The balance will be heavily rocked should GB go into the EEA. The agreement is very fragile as it is and will probably be very different with GB in it.

 

[Real Sharapova]

Yep. Well what's done is done. I have a friend that moved over to Norway and has been living there for the past 2 and a half years now and he loves it. As he understands it, the main benefit of being in the EEA over being in the EU is that Norway only has to pass 20% of EU legislation and can create trade agreements with other countries which the UK is restricted on being in the EU. The question is is this worth our 'seat at the table'? Personally I think it is...

Assuming this is the route we go down. There's also talk of a bilateral trade agreement.

For your 20% of EU regulation, replace with 75%

www.fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws

That's in line with what Blaarev said a few days ago, I assume he's right as he's Norwegian

 

[Blaarev]

For your 20% of EU regulation, replace with 75%

www.fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws

That's in line with what Blaarev said a few days ago, I assume he's right as he's Norwegian

75% is much closer to the truth than 20

 

[M17TT C]

Well from the leave camp you shouldn't really expect any truths.


No one would buy a house without seeing it first or sign a mortgage with nothing on it and say just make the terms up after but it's pretty much what we have done here. Lunacy of the highest order.

 

[homer]

The one where we pay into the EU and accept free movement of labour?

And have no say whatsoever on regulations that we are subsequently bound to

Yep, sounds great

 

[Real Sharapova]

Nice to see that Boris Johnson is in full control of the facts. Shortly after he said this morning " the pound was stable " it plunged to a new low for the day, hitting a 31 year low against the dollar.

 

[Brown Nose]

The conduct of sections of the "leave" campaign gave license to the xenophobes and racists to ceawl out of their burrows. Hopefully they will soon disappear again, but in the meantime their victims are unlikely to be comforted by their fears being dismissed as of little consequence

Nobody is likely to have changed their opinions on race since last week, or even last year. All this focus on immigration has done is bring a little of what's there anyway towards the surface. Is anyone seriously going to argue that this referendum has created 'new' racism?

It's horrible for those that are victimised in these incidents. However, is there another way of genuinely exposing what people really think and what we're short of as a society? We've spent decades now pretending that millions of people in this country aren't xenophobic when they patently are.

There are only two solutions. The first is regressing completely and scaring people with different languages, colours or cultures out of the country. The other is to be open and accepting the reality of xenophobia and addressing it with education and understanding. It isn't anybody's fault if they are xenophobic (see my earlier post for my rambling explanation of this).

Just making statements saying how despicable it is from Parliament to Twitter is going to achieve absolutely nothing, except perhaps entrench those views even further. The true danger is marginalising people so far that they evolve from xenophobia into racism.

 

[David Gwilliam]

We've spent decades now pretending that millions of people in this country aren't xenophobic when they patently are.

I am not clear on your meaning.

The kindest view is that you are referring to the increase in hate crimes. The racist attacks verbal or physical are appalling and if they number hundreds that is hundreds too many. However, to suggest that they involve millions is clearly untrue. The vast majority of people in both camps are absolutely against such crimes.

Hopefully you are not suggesting that the millions of people who voted Leave were xenophobic. Both sides demeaned the campaign with unsavoury smears and this was one of them. It is a smear that needs to stop.

One reason is that because it stops members of the former Remain campaign from understanding why seventeen million wanted to leave. I noticed that the usual comment among the minority of my friends who wanted to Remain was that staying in the EU was the lesser of two evils.

A second and more important reason for the smears to stop is that we cannot move on while the two sides are still insulting each other. Sixteen million people are disappointed by the result and they are tending to lash out verbally; no doubt Leave would have done the same. We need both the seventeen million and those of the sixteen million left when Scotland leaves to come together to make the future work.

 

[Brown Nose]

I am not clear on your meaning.

My contention is that most human beings are naturally xenophobic (see post 259). The Leave campaign did use this for their advantage in the campaign. But it's not materially different from suggesting to poor people that they should vote Labour or rolling out a sob story on the X Factor to gain votes.

It is a fact that immigration is changing many communities in England too quickly for many of the inhabitants to cope intelligently with. It is also a fact that a Leave vote was the only way for people concerned about that to express dissatisfaction with this.

As a Leave supporter, the immigration issue had nothing at all to do with my vote. But we'd never have won the referendum without it and it's absurd to suggest otherwise.

The two main political parties have spent decades completely ignoring their 'safe seats', which comprises three quarters of the country, in order to do battle over the 'marginals'. Every general election for decades have been focused on these areas. In addition, there have been topics for debate (usually economic) and topics of taboo (things like immigration). The consequence is that most of the country have had virtually no communication with their MP or intelligent political discourse during an election campaign.

It really isn't that difficult to understand why the country is so divided and how to sort it out. People just need to look, listen and make sensible decisions. Out of the mess that is the modern political landscape, someone will emerge with the intelligence to make this happen. It might take a few years but we'll get there.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I really doubt we're actually going to leave the EU despite the insistance of Cameron that the democratic will of the people must not be overturned. By insisting that there can be 'no deal until article 50 has been triggered' they've effectively got us over a barrel..

 

[bocadillo]

I really doubt we're actually going to leave the EU

I've thought this for a long time now and people have said that it would be impossible for the government to ignore a LEAVE majority in the referendum. I still think an excuse will be found to stay in; it will be interesting to see the reaction of 'the people'.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

I think we will wind up with a new PM who is pro-EU for a start. It's all well and good saying we want to go the Norway route or whatever but the EU won't let us do that. If we did leave and we were to become better off for it, the EU would be finished. Nigel Farage is a fool if he thinks they need us more than we need them, but he does have a point. We are sort of intrinsically linked.....

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

I've thought this for a long time now and people have said that it would be impossible for the government to ignore a LEAVE majority in the referendum. I still think an excuse will be found to stay in; it will be interesting to see the reaction of 'the people'.

The "excuse" being a deal of such excruciating shittiness that even the most obdurate Cornwallian or Mackem will have second thoughts (or more accurately first thoughts).

 

[fitz]

Yup, there'll be no fictional mint deal on the table and we'll have to back out and look a right bunch of ****s. Only after we've received a bit more lovely austerity for upsetting the markets. Bunch of ****s that we are.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Nigel Farage is a fool if he thinks they need us more than we need them, but he does have a point. We are sort of intrinsically linked.....

Nigel Farage is certainly not a fool. With the possible exception of the SNP leadership he is the most successful politician in the country. He became leader of a tiny party and achieved its main aim against the combined forces of every other political party.

I admit to a prejudice: I passionately disagree with him on grammar schools and am told by experts that he is wrong on climate change but in the European Parliament he has spoken for me in a way nobody else has.

 

[Brown Nose]

Nigel Farage is certainly not a fool. With the possible exception of the SNP leadership he is the most successful politician in the country. He became leader of a tiny party and achieved its main aim against the combined forces of every other political party.

I admit to a prejudice: I passionately disagree with him on grammar schools and am told by experts that he is wrong on climate change but in the European Parliament he has spoken for me in a way nobody else has.

You're quite right that he resonates with millions of people about Europe and he has mountains of evidence to support his argument. He speaks his mind clearly, unlike most other politicians.

However, I often find his behaviour unacceptable. For example, his speech yesterday in Brussels was absolutely the wrong tone and I found him embarrassing. He was materially wrong too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36654901

I also profoundly disagree with just about everything he's ever expressed an opinion on except Europe. Now that the predominant cause of his party is achieved, I sincerely hope that he and they disappear from British politics as soon as possible.

 

[Matt_B]

Nigel Farage is certainly not a fool. With the possible exception of the SNP leadership he is the most successful politician in the country. He became leader of a tiny party and achieved its main aim against the combined forces of every other political party.

I admit to a prejudice: I passionately disagree with him on grammar schools and am told by experts that he is wrong on climate change but in the European Parliament he has spoken for me in a way nobody else has.

From what I gather, he barely ever attends European parliament.

 

[Ike O'Noclassed]

From what I gather, he barely ever attends European parliament.

He also never attends the UK parliament, either - never having been elected like. Successful politician my arse.