EU referendum

[Mawsley]

If Lovejoy is an option I'm voting for the other person.

 

[fitz]

I don't get this attitude by some that if you vote to leave you are a raging Nazi and if you vote to stay in you are a drooling lefty. There is for and against both options and no matter which way the UK votes it will not all be either doom and damnation or even love and joy.

I get it...the most vocal for or against leaving seem to be a bunch of ****s and mentalists.

 

[Brown Nose]

I can't understand why this pair of dipshits are campaigning so strongly to remain in the EU can you?

 

[jb5000]

You don't think they lose their pension if we leave do you?

 

[Brown Nose]

You don't think they lose their pension if we leave do you?

Of course not. But we can stop Clegg or Miliband or Osborne following them into the trough.

I've been watching a few of the debates over recent days and they are truly depressing. We have such a poor group of politicians at the moment. There are so few brain cells on show from both sides. Even someone plainly anti-EU like Corbyn has been bullied into mindless and gutless statements. So many of them are clearly saying things that they really don't believe at all. It truly is quite scandalous.

This is the closest to my own view I've found and why I'll be voting out:

 

[Cate Fox]

I am sick to death of the constant scaremongering from both sides. Neither know what will happen, its for your conscience to tell you how to vote. I actively had a go at someone on twitter who stated that anyone voting Brexit was a Nazi; he backtracked very quickly.

 

[David Gwilliam]

It is a long time since I wrote one of the long boring posts for which I became notorious.

The one thing that was always certain was that the vote would take place on a Thursday and yet nobody seems to ask why. In 1928 the voting age for women was reduced from 30 to 21. This was known as the Flappers Vote although it would be more accurate to call it the shop girls vote. The 1931 election was held on a Tuesday leading to complaints that the shop girls had not been able to vote. From then on there was a convention that electiuons should be held on Thursday as it was half day closing in most cities. Why choose Thursday for half day closing? - because that was the traditional market day. Now half day closing is a thing of the past but the convention stays on.

You should not base your vote on what will be good for the economy. I have had a superficial interest in economic history for over fifty years and have learned one thing - no economist knows anything. The crash of 2007-2008 caught everybody by surprise as did that of 1873 and 1929.

The 1975 referendum was carried out without the sheer nastiness of this one. Prime Minister Harold Wilson led the Labour campaign while Barbara Castle his friend and closest political ally spoke strongly against. There was no animosity, their friendship was not harmed and Castle continued to serve in the Wilson government. The same was true of Edward Heath who led the Conservative campaign * and his closest ally Peter Walker.

Wilson and Heath like other politicians in 1975 had lived through the 1930s and 1940s. They understood Hitler too well to bandy his name as a mere insult. For todays politicians for whom Thatcher is ancient history Hitler is useful as a mere Freddie Kruegar type bogyman. Nigel Farage is not Hitler and neither is Angela Merkl . Wilson and Heath were respected and their views mattered. There are people who will be put off by David Cameron's support for Remain. As for Jeremy Corbyn he has to answer one question - having been passionately against the EU for decades what changed his mind in the Autumn of 2015.

Full disclosure. I will be voting Brexit. This does not mean I am anti-European; I get teased over my passion for Italy. I love Paris and Vienna. It does mean I am against British membership of the European Union. If we leave I will still enjoy frascati wine, Raphael's paintings and go weak at the knees whenever I hear a young lady with an Italian accent.
It does mean that I believe the British people as represented by the House of Commons with all its faults should be the supreme authority.
It does mean that I regard the EU as an elitist bureaucracy and History shows bureaucrats always try to maximise their mission.

While I will be voting Brexit I believe Remain will win.

* Before any pedant corrects me I am aware that Heath was no longer Conservative party leader during the referendum campagn. However, he very much led the Conservative referendum campaign.

 

[Cate Fox]

Nice post David.

 

[spionfox]

While I will be voting Brexit I believe Remain will win.

Any other outcome would not be allowed.

Of course, now that the Murdoch rag has declared its support, maybe it will be "The Sun that won it..." again.

 

[Mawsley]

I'd totally forgotten the joys of going into town to do some badly needed shopping only to find it was bloody half day closing. What a stupid practise that was.

 

[David Gwilliam]

I don't get this attitude by some that if you vote to leave you are a raging Nazi and if you vote to stay in you are a drooling lefty. There is for and against both options and no matter which way the UK votes it will not all be either doom and damnation or even love and joy.

,the widespread stupidity & ignorance,the conviction that the English are somehow better than anyone else (usually most passionately spouted by the sort of people who can't tie their own laces without a ****ing diagram),the casual bullying of anyone lower down the scale in tandem with gutless cowardice when it comes to taking on those above.
It's always the same in dead empires.I imagine 6th century Rome was pretty similar.
The loudest voices ranting about bringing back the Great Days of Empire always belong to people the empire did **** all for at it's height.
.

What a difference between two views.
Spion is wise and calm.
Give Us A Wave is wonderful in a Monty Pythonesque way. I hope he will not mind if I take it seriously.

So far as I can understand Give Us A Wave finds the English he mixes with (presumably friends) are servile, gutless, stupid and ignorant. Do they know how he feels about them.? Why is this an argument either for or against remaining in the EU.
We then have a remarkable passage about a 6th century Rome that he admits he has imagined He claims his imaginary Rome is similar to 21st Century Britain. The real 6th century Rome was complex and had little in common with 21st century Britain. I am unable to see why a Rome of the imagination should influence voters one way or the other.

.

 

[give_us_a_wave]

What a difference between two views.
Spion is wise and calm.
Give Us A Wave is wonderful in a Monty Pythonesque way. I hope he will not mind if I take it seriously.

So far as I can understand Give Us A Wave finds the English he mixes with (presumably friends) are servile, gutless, stupid and ignorant. Do they know how he feels about them.? Why is this an argument either for or against remaining in the EU.
We then have a remarkable passage about a 6th century Rome that he admits he has imagined He claims his imaginary Rome is similar to 21st Century Britain. The real 6th century Rome was complex and had little in common with 21st century Britain. I am unable to see why a Rome of the imagination should influence voters one way or the other.

.

You're clearly an intelligent man David.As such it should be clear to you that my rant was a sweeping statement.It distills years of experience into a generalisation that in real life has (of course) many exceptions.
The morons I describe are not my friends.I have few of those because I choose them wisely.I get it wrong sometimes too.Also,I freely admit to being a bit of a **** sometimes.
My opinions are formed by many years of working in jobs that involved a lot of contact with the public.Some of them have also involved more than an average amount of contact with people from outside the UK so I've had probably more chance to compare my countrymen with others than the average person.
Over the years I've definitely noted the characteristics I describe.
Ignorance is probably a better word than stupid,but my God there are some frighteningly stupid people about!
Servile I make no apologies for.England still suffers from a culture of deference,even if it is mostly subconscious.
Rome was a shorthand (first dead empire that came to mind) but I think the analogy stands.
Post Roman Italy slowly fractured & ended up as a collection of city states for centuries.Here & now we have devolution,Scotland pushing for independence,calls for assemblies for the English regions etc.Fallen empires tend to suffer from a collective aftershock & withdrawal symptoms from no longer being powerful.In response they turn ever more inward,their worldview ever more narrow.Then comes nostalgia for mythical golden ages.Then Xenophobia increases.All a bit of a mess.
I just like being part of a wider world & I have an inbuilt aversion to the sort of petty nationalism & out-and-out racism I've heard being used to advocate leaving the EU.Especially the way it's been ramped up in the past week or two.
I'd rather fight from within to change some of the lunatic elements of the Union than leave & trust in a UK government to do what's best for me.Especially the current one that clearly has no agenda beyond it's own survival.I'd like to live long enough to see the return of ideology in some form (other than "Good For Business" which doesn't really count)

 

[Brown Nose]

It's often said that Britain is more anti- European than other countries but that isn't really true.

If, and it's a very big if, the leave vote succeeds next week, I think it will trigger the collapse of the EU project. I truly hope that Britain can lead the way and other countries will realise that there is nothing to fear from leaving.

All those countries currently being paralysed and systematically asset stripped by the EU may then have a future after all.

Backing Brexit could actually be the most pro-European thing you can do.

 

[give_us_a_wave]

It's often said that Britain is more anti- European than other countries but that isn't really true.

If, and it's a very big if, the leave vote succeeds next week, I think it will trigger the collapse of the EU project. I truly hope that Britain can lead the way and other countries will realise that there is nothing to fear from leaving.

All those countries currently being paralysed and systematically asset stripped by the EU may then have a future after all.

Backing Brexit could actually be the most pro-European thing you can do.

Either that or watch Putin reabsorb the Eastern portions.Could go either way.But what the hell lets roll the dice & find out.70 years of avoiding full on conflict has gotten a bit boring.The Balkans was only a skirmish,lets have some more.

 

[Brown Nose]

Either that or watch Putin reabsorb the Eastern portions.Could go either way.But what the hell lets roll the dice & find out.70 years of avoiding full on conflict has gotten a bit boring.The Balkans was only a skirmish,lets have some more.

Voting for Brexit will lead to World War III eh?

In what way does a miserably ineffective political system make the remotest difference to the security of the continent? The countries that comprise the EU won't suddenly stop thinking the way they do because this silly project fails.

Anyway, I'm currently reading all about Russia, in particular the Romanov dynasty. It makes Game of Thrones seem positively dull. It's a very complex country, with a deeply mixed relationship with the people of surrounding territories.

Putin pays as much attention to the EU as any Russian leader has, for example Gorbachev. Yes, that great reformer of Russia that did more to move the country towards the rest of the world than any other. He said the following of the EU:

“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”

 

[give_us_a_wave]

Text frustrates me.All my nuances of humour disappear & drift on the breeze.I was trying to put forward a worst case scenario on the other side.Simple fact is,nobody knows what the long term effects will be.But my gut instinct is that somewhere down the line it might be possible to make the whole European thing work.Whereas I have zero trust in our own political system.It's polluted from top to bottom beyond any hope of saving.Just a set of middle managers working on behalf of vested interests & enslaved to banks.
All except the anomaly that is Corbyn.& they'll deal with him one way or another in the next couple of years.
I know that all the same facts apply to the EU,I just think there's more chance to overthrow it than there is of doing the same here.No hope here.This is England.Dissenting voices here are turned into figures of ridicule.
Sorry but I regard myself as European & I've never had any time for that Anglocentric worldview that was still being taught when I was at school.
Plus I don't want any closer ties with the ludicrous falling edifice that is the USA.A country that almost every problem in the modern world is traceable to.

 

[David Gwilliam]

Anyway, I'm currently reading all about Russia, in particular the Romanov dynasty. It makes Game of Thrones seem positively dull. It's a very complex country, with a deeply mixed relationship with the people of surrounding territories.

.”

Part of an exceptionally interesting post. In terms of Putin you may find Tsar Nicholas I who ruled from 1825 to 1855 is especially interesting.

My opinions are formed by many years of working in jobs that involved a lot of contact with the public.Some of them have also involved more than an average amount of contact with people from outside the UK so I've had probably more chance to compare my countrymen with others than the average person

Mr Wave suggests that the British are inferior to the continentals and he may be right. The answer to that is more integration - maybe be a campaign to get British men to breed with young Italian women. . .
I am not qualified to suggest which continentals English women should integrate with - perhaps we could get an answer from Cate or as Brown Nose would call her Catherine the Great

I think I had better return to the football.

 

[Motown Fox]

Young Italian women - now you're talking David.

 

[Blue Maniac]

Bizarre.

 

[give_us_a_wave]

I prefer it when it gets bizarre.