Racist orgy shame caught on camera during Thailand end of season tour

[jb5000]

That depends on the definition of production, which is no doubt one of the things they players' lawyers would quibble over.

 

[rjk]

So by that theory the women are equally as guilty then?


I'm not saying anyone was in the right or wrong here, just trying to show that it really isn't as simple as just sacking them.

Under Thai law, yes. And in previous posts, I stated that those players by doing this will have put those women in serious danger. And this should have a bearing on the punishment the club dishes out. In my opinion this makes their actions far more serious. They are already home. Safe, out of the way. Who is left to take the flak and blame?

 

[jb5000]

No we're not. The law is the law. Ignorance is no defence. They would have known. Those countries always make it quite clear what their attitudes to homosexuality is. Just because we find their attitudes appalling, doesn't mean we have the right to break THEIR laws.

We're going off on a tangent here, but there are plenty of people who believe that civil disobedience against an unjust law is a duty. Would we still have criminalised homosexuality in this country without it? What about slavery or apartheid elsewhere? Although to me the solution is for the club to simply not visit such awful places!

 

[rjk]

I absolutely agree with you. But we were talking about what a 'player' representing the club overseas would do.

 

[jb5000]

I absolutely agree with you. But we were talking about what a 'player' representing the club overseas would do.

The club does not know the sexuality of it's staff, should it assume that all are straight and will not be offended by such laws when deciding on a tour?

 

[rjk]

Does the club 'not know the sexuality of its staff'? I bet they do. I bet Nigel would. He makes a point of his man management skills to all new players. Again, the club will decide on a tour for it's own reasons. The human rights issues, sadly, and despite all the programs they initiate, play little importance in football, particularly when lucrative marketing deals are to be had.
Besides which we have a government hell bent on removing us from the European Court of Human Rights, and scrapping the Human Rights Act. So people in glass houses and all that...

 

[londonfox]

In the very first sentence he explains that he is a twat so I stopped reading. I think you're in the minority of one there, mate.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...high-standards-placed-upon-them-10295235.html

 

[jb5000]

Does the club 'not know the sexuality of its staff'? I bet they do. I bet Nigel would. He makes a point of his man management skills to all new players. Again, the club will decide on a tour for it's own reasons. The human rights issues, sadly, and despite all the programs they initiate, play little importance in football, particularly when lucrative marketing deals are to be had.
Besides which we have a government hell bent on removing us from the European Court of Human Rights, and scrapping the Human Rights Act. So people in glass houses and all that...

There are no out professional footballers. Around 1 in 10 of us is gay. Therefore: We probably have gay staff, and the club is unlikely to know it (or is better at keeping secrets than many state surveillance agencies). What would the position be of a club effectively expecting a member of staff to visit a country where he is illegal. What should be the reaction if he is caught?

And you might not have noticed, but the Bill of British Rights is being quietly put to bed - for now at least.

 

[jb5000]

In the very first sentence he explains that he is a twat so I stopped reading. I think you're in the minority of one there, mate.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...high-standards-placed-upon-them-10295235.html

It's the same old line about footballers not being role models (beyond learning how to kick a ball). I can't disagree with the piece, they're not and only awful parents think otherwise.

 

[Brown Nose]

There are no out professional footballers. Around 1 in 10 of us is gay.

More likely nearer 1.5%: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/oct/03/gay-britain-what-do-statistics-say

If we assume that the 20x25 man squads in the Premier League have a equally representative number of gay/bisexual players, this would amount to 7-8 across the 20 clubs. So, purely on stats, it is less than a 50% chance that City a gay/bisexual player in their first team squad.

What would be interesting is to know whether gay/bisexual people are more or less likely to end up as professional footballers than an average profession. My guess would be less. There are several professions where it appears that gay people are more prevalent than 1.5%, acting, the BBC, flight crew, hairdressing, etc (I know I'm generalising but you get my point) so it would make sense that something overtly 'blokey' like most sports or the armed forces or similar would have a much lower representation.

It could be that there are no gay/bisexual players in the Premier League at all. The almost total lack of any gay player coming out when surely they'd be respected and admired for it by most supporters and colleagues suggests that they are very few and far between.

 

[rjk]

And you might not have noticed, but the Bill of British Rights is being quietly put to bed - for now at least.

It's on hold for a year. He's still saying he will withdraw from the Human Rights Convention. "It's in our Manifesto".

 

[Matt_B]

More likely nearer 1.5%: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/oct/03/gay-britain-what-do-statistics-say

If we assume that the 20x25 man squads in the Premier League have a equally representative number of gay/bisexual players, this would amount to 7-8 across the 20 clubs. So, purely on stats, it is less than a 50% chance that City a gay/bisexual player in their first team squad.

What would be interesting is to know whether gay/bisexual people are more or less likely to end up as professional footballers than an average profession. My guess would be less. There are several professions where it appears that gay people are more prevalent than 1.5%, acting, the BBC, flight crew, hairdressing, etc (I know I'm generalising but you get my point) so it would make sense that something overtly 'blokey' like most sports or the armed forces or similar would have a much lower representation.

It could be that there are no gay/bisexual players in the Premier League at all. The almost total lack of any gay player coming out when surely they'd be respected and admired for it by most supporters and colleagues suggests that they are very few and far between.

Coming out worked well for Fashanu.

 

[Mawsley]

Merriam Webster's dictionary says:



Now I don't believe it was made to cause sexual excitement and no one here has confessed to knocking one out while watching it - so I reckon the term pornography is wrong.

 

[jb5000]

More likely nearer 1.5%: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/oct/03/gay-britain-what-do-statistics-say

If we assume that the 20x25 man squads in the Premier League have a equally representative number of gay/bisexual players, this would amount to 7-8 across the 20 clubs. So, purely on stats, it is less than a 50% chance that City a gay/bisexual player in their first team squad.

What would be interesting is to know whether gay/bisexual people are more or less likely to end up as professional footballers than an average profession. My guess would be less. There are several professions where it appears that gay people are more prevalent than 1.5%, acting, the BBC, flight crew, hairdressing, etc (I know I'm generalising but you get my point) so it would make sense that something overtly 'blokey' like most sports or the armed forces or similar would have a much lower representation.

It could be that there are no gay/bisexual players in the Premier League at all. The almost total lack of any gay player coming out when surely they'd be respected and admired for it by most supporters and colleagues suggests that they are very few and far between.

I think Kinsey's got a bit more background on this than the ONS frankly. An indepth survey focuses on people's sexual behaviours and desires that's been going for decades is always going to beat one question in a wider survey. A lot of people won't open up in an impersonal government survey, and a lot of cultures only consider it to be gay to be on the receiving end of a good bumming, On a 25 man squad, that gives a probability of 93% of having at least one gay player, and across 500 players in the EPL you'd need a much lower percentage to have a reasonable expectation of having several across the 20 clubs.

In terms of different professions, I really don't know what works been done on this but I suspect its much more about professions where being out has been more normalised over time. Certainly bear in mind that in the armed forces it's only been possible to be out and to continue serving for a short time. Likewise, the sad experience of Justin Fashnu, but also that American lad at Leeds more recently must surely put people off from coming out.

 

[Robin127]

If Fashanu were playing today things would have turned out a lot better for him and I think things will get better, thanks to Robbie Rogers and Thomas Hitzleberger.

 

[David Gwilliam]

It's the same old line about footballers not being role models (beyond learning how to kick a ball). I can't disagree with the piece, they're not and only awful parents think otherwise.

Thank you JB. Those are startling facts but I know you would not have posted without good reason..

Footballers are not role models.
Parents who think footballers are role models are awful.
I am surprised. What is your evidence for this?

 

[jb5000]

I really have never understood this suggestion that a professional footballer is a role model. They're just people who are good at running about kicking a ball, and invariably have paid little attention to their education while being lucky to have received good coaching and avoided injury. What's to admire apart from specific skills with the ball?

When my dad was taking me to Filbert Street as a nipper I never heard any suggestion that I should take any kind of cue from the eleven men I was cheering for, aside from wanting the ability on the ball of McAllister and to run around like Ali Mauchlen - things that aren't that important in the big scheme of things.

The whole concept of anybody being a role model for a child is based on the abdication of that responsibility by parents. The definition of awful in my book.

 

[Matt_B]

I really have never understood this suggestion that a professional footballer is a role model. They're just people who are good at running about kicking a ball, and invariably have paid little attention to their education while being lucky to have received good coaching and avoided injury. What's to admire apart from specific skills with the ball?

When my dad was taking me to Filbert Street as a nipper I never heard any suggestion that I should take any kind of cue from the eleven men I was cheering for, aside from wanting the ability on the ball of McAllister and to run around like Ali Mauchlen - things that aren't that important in the big scheme of things.

The whole concept of anybody being a role model for a child is based on the abdication of that responsibility by parents. The definition of awful in my book.

You do realise that kids choose their own role models, not the parents? I have kids in my class with perfectly good parents who still idolise Vardy and Cambiasso along with various bands etc. Tell me, why should somebody who happens to share your genes be any more qualified to be a role model? There are plenty of shitty parents out there.

 

[Jenks]

You do realise that kids choose their own role models, not the parents? I have kids in my class with perfectly good parents who still idolise Vardy and Cambiasso along with various bands etc. Tell me, why should somebody who happens to share your genes be any more qualified to be a role model? There are plenty of shitty parents out there.

Thank you Matt, exactly. Children watch and copy. A parent guides but cannot necessarily choose who their children admire. I think the term role model may have been misconstrued in part, meaning only that these young men are watched and their actions are noticed by impressionable minds.

 

[Matt_B]

Exactly. I don't agree with expecting footballers or any athletes to live up to the label of role model but to accuse parents of failing because their children adopt them as such is ridiculous. We don't expect actors or musicians to adhere to similar expectations so why sports stars? When Amy Winehouse was battling drugs she was pitied and offered concealing by many. If that was a sports star they'd be hounded.