Re: Nottingham Forest
Mr. Gwilliam has been superbly patronizing of late.
I felt I was being kind and I am pleased Macky also saw it that way.
That's very kind of you to say so David, however, that isn't the unenviable ability of mine that is on display. Historical complexities are an irrelevance in this situation. We are also dealing with what happens on a daily basis in this current day and age and I was making a statement of fact about documented and provable instances of Israeli terror, murder and oppression.
As a matter of indisputable fact, the state of Israel is an evil, disgusting shower of murderous ****s.
Talkingballs as a discussion forum is as valid as any other. As you know well David, my views on all aspects of history are entirely based on verifiable and documented facts. If you have alternative evidence to present to counter any point that I have made so far, then I would welcome any input that you have and look forward to examining it. Perhaps there's a superior specialist forum that could assist you with that?
Since my answer to Macky is bound to be long I recommend that other people ignore this post and concentrate on something more entertaining, If you do insist on reading it please do not blame either Macky or myself,
One correction Macky your indisputable fact is disputed by a lot of people; no doubt including most Israelis.
The words I would use to describe Israel are angry and desperate and therefore foolish and hateful (literally full of hate). They are also the words I would use to describe the Palestinians.
My understanding is that the founders of Israel like Ben Gurion and Menachim Begin were angry that the Jews had not resisted Hitler and were determined that Jews would never again be persecuted. This led to a ruthlessness that certainly in Begin's case involved terrorism. There was a desperation that came from the knowledge that they only had to lose one war for Israel to be destroyed. Macky you may for may not eel History is irrelevant to the modern conflict but Israeli governments know that Israel came close to be destroyed in 1948 and a surprise attack in 1973. It explains but not justify Israeli aggression in 1956 and arguably in 1967.
It is understandable that a Jew born in Israel with children and grandchildren born there regards it as his land. It is also understandable that no Israeli Prime Minister wants to be the one whose weakness leads to the destruction of Israel. They will also be aware that the Prime Minister arguably most willing to compromise Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated. This has led to Prime Ministers who have been inflexible and arguably foolish such as Benjamin Netanyahu and the wrongheaded policy of building settlements on the occupied territories.
Palestinians are also angry and desperate and therefore frequently foolish. They are angry because someone born in Palestine whose ancestors lived there for generations has been driven from their land - Israelis often claim they left voluntarily but a mass of evidence suggests otherwise. In 1947 the United Nations came up with a partition plan. This would have given the Palestinians far more than they can realistically hope for in the future. The Jewish leadership accepted it (although this may have been tactical). The Palestinian leaders rejected it. The Arab countries then attacked (1948) and were defeated.
The Palestinians have become desperate partly because of terrible poverty and partly because the state of Israel shows no signs of going away. Desperation makes people foolish. A Palestinian state could only have been set up if America puts real pressure on Israel. Yet American TV viewers have seen Palestinians supporting Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, cheering 9-11 and electing a government in Gaza that is rightly or wrongly regarded by Americans as a terrorist organisation.
Religious extremism is, of course, also involved and these people are not only prepared to die for their beliefs but prepared for other people to die for them also. Perhaps above all these conflicts lead to de-humanisation of the enemy which explains the revolting callousness on both sides.
I do not believe we will see peace in our time but eventually peace will come. Since the time of Julius Cesar and perhaps before the Rhine has been the river of blood and conflict. Today it is a symbol of prosperity.
As London Fox would say: this is my opinion and I have a right to it. However, I make a proviso:do not take the views of Macky or myself too seriously. History has few lessons but one is that people never understand their own time. I don't know how certain you are of your views Macky but I am, thoroughly uncertain of mine.If people want a definitive answer from me they should ask me in a hundred years time.
