will it kick off at forest??

[David Gwilliam]

oh cheers gwilliams!! for the record im no trouble causer, i dont see the point in all that crap, its mainly 17 year old chavs acting up anyway cos they got 10 of there mates with them! .if you saw the same people the next day without there ''boys'' they wudnt say boo to a goose! find a pub have a few beers, watch the game, sing some songs and back to the pub after. happy days, especially if we win! see you all in west bridgeford!

I am sure you are a credit to the Salvation Army and an example to us all.

 

[Blue Maniac]

I am sure you are a credit to the Salvation Army and an example to us all.

I didn't even know what that meant DG. Any ideas?

 

[Macky]

i dunno why but this made me chuckle alot :icon_lol: imagine if old churchill had been a footy manager...

I'd say the inhabitants of Dresden would've been a lot happier if he'd have been a football manager instead of his chosen career

 

[David Gwilliam]

I'd say the inhabitants of Dresden would've been a lot happier if he'd have been a football manager instead of his chosen career

The inhabitants of Dresden would have been happier if Hitler had stuck to painting. The inhabitants of Leicester have much reason to be grateful to Churchill,

 

[Macky]

The inhabitants of Dresden would have been happier if Hitler had stuck to painting.

That goes without saying, but the fact that Hitler was evil doesn't excuse Churchill's policy of targeting German civilians. War crimes are war crimes, whoever perpetrates them.

The inhabitants of Leicester have much reason to be grateful to Churchill,

They also have much reason to be ashamed of some of his actions, they're generally glossed over though.

 

[David Gwilliam]

That goes without saying, but the fact that Hitler was evil doesn't excuse Churchill's policy of targeting German civilians. War crimes are war crimes, whoever perpetrates them.



They also have much reason to be ashamed of some of his actions, they're generally glossed over though.

I am concerned to avoid this turning into a historical article. I think Mackie's sure touch when it comes to Leicester City rather deserts him when it comes to History. Far from Churchill's actions being "glossed over" every detail of his long life has been raked over again and again by historians including those episodes like Gallipoli where he was probably at fault.

Stalin believed an attack on Dresden was necessary and requested it. I believe (but am not sure) that American intelligence backed that claim. Of course intelligence in war is always uncertain. It is unrealistic to believe that any Prime Minister would have turned down such a request at a time when the Soviets were engaged in such a terrible struggle and suffering such casualties.
If with hindsight Dresden was less important to the Germans than was believed at the time then Stalin may take some of the blame. Ultimately though everything that happened to Germany should be blamed on Hitler.
Would Churchill have made a differrent decision with hindsight? That no one can tell but I do know from people in the war that no one at the time believed it was wrong.

To defend Churchill's reputation I would make five points:
(1) His fiercest political opponents Clement Attlee and Herbie Morrison both regarded Churchill as a great man and had real affection for him.
(2) Abroad he was regarded as a very great man. In the late 1940s two Labour MPs were on a train in France. As was natural with Churchill being leader of the Opposition they were complaining about him. A Frenchman interrupted them and in perfect English say "Excuse me but in France it is bad manners to criticize Winston Churchill."
(3) In the late 1940s when hatred of Germany was at its most virulent Churchill told a European conference "Where are the Germans; you cannot build a united Europe without Germany." He went out of his way to meet and be seen shaking hands with Adenauer. No victor was ever more magnanimous than Churchill.
(4) Even Tony Benn, perhaps the best known member of the present day left , accepts that Churchill was a good and great man.
(5) Many historians believe that without Churchill Hitler may have defeated Britain. The far left historian AJP Taylor called him "the saviour of the nation."
Other great men such as Richelieu, Pitt and Bismarck did not inspire affection. With Churchill as with Lincoln people who knew him regarded him as not only a great man but a good one.

I realise that this has little to do with Leicester City but History is important and "bad history" must be challenged.

 

[Macky]

I am concerned to avoid this turning into a historical article. I think Mackie's sure touch when it comes to Leicester City rather deserts him when it comes to History. Far from Churchill's actions being "glossed over" every detail of his long life has been raked over again and again by historians including those episodes like Gallipoli where he was probably at fault.

Stalin believed an attack on Dresden was necessary and requested it. I believe (but am not sure) that American intelligence backed that claim. Of course intelligence in war is always uncertain. It is unrealistic to believe that any Prime Minister would have turned down such a request at a time when the Soviets were engaged in such a terrible struggle and suffering such casualties.
If with hindsight Dresden was less important to the Germans than was believed at the time then Stalin may take some of the blame. Ultimately though everything that happened to Germany should be blamed on Hitler.
Would Churchill have made a differrent decision with hindsight? That no one can tell but I do know from people in the war that no one at the time believed it was wrong.

To defend Churchill's reputation I would make five points:
(1) His fiercest political opponents Clement Attlee and Herbie Morrison both regarded Churchill as a great man and had real affection for him.
(2) Abroad he was regarded as a very great man. In the late 1940s two Labour MPs were on a train in France. As was natural with Churchill being leader of the Opposition they were complaining about him. A Frenchman interrupted them and in perfect English say "Excuse me but in France it is bad manners to criticize Winston Churchill."
(3) In the late 1940s when hatred of Germany was at its most virulent Churchill told a European conference "Where are the Germans; you cannot build a united Europe without Germany." He went out of his way to meet and be seen shaking hands with Adenauer. No victor was ever more magnanimous than Churchill.
(4) Even Tony Benn, perhaps the best known member of the present day left , accepts that Churchill was a good and great man.
(5) Many historians believe that without Churchill Hitler may have defeated Britain. The far left historian AJP Taylor called him "the saviour of the nation."
Other great men such as Richelieu, Pitt and Bismarck did not inspire affection. With Churchill as with Lincoln people who knew him regarded him as not only a great man but a good one.

I realise that this has little to do with Leicester City but History is important and "bad history" must be challenged.

David, with the greatest of respect, that is an awful lot of words that you've used to say relatively little.

Dresden is only famous because it was utterly razed to the ground. However, it wasn't the only city targeted in a deliberate campaign, sanctioned and arranged by Churchill, to target German citizens in a bombing campaign to 'break their spirit'. Hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died because of it. Whatever way you try to dress that up, it was a war crime. It isn't the only war crime he was guilty of, in both of the world wars.

I don't dispute he was a great war leader, an exceptional orator and a master of rhetoric, but that doesn't excuse him.

His friendship and support of 'uncle Joe' Stalin was particularly nauseating and I don't believe he would've taken a different decision in hindsight, he revelled in war.

 

[Macky]

By the way, you're absolutely right about 'bad history' being challenged, that was the entire reason I posted what I did.

 

[David Gwilliam]

By the way, you're absolutely right about 'bad history' being challenged, that was the entire reason I posted what I did.

As this thread is going to come to a natural end today I think we will have to agree to differ on Churchill but agree on the importance of History.

 

[DesertFox]

Hang on - I'm not sure I got to the bottom of all this. Will it all kick off in Dresden today? I'm confused.

 

[bocadillo]

If it didn't kick off at the match, it certainly did at the EDL march.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8396994.stm

 

[fox58]

If it didn't kick off at the match, it certainly did at the EDL march.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8396994.stm

we used the park and ride yesterday and when went for a drink in the town after the game we got caught up in this, as the police blocked off the streets around the train and bus stations

 

[Blue Maniac]

we used the park and ride yesterday and when went for a drink in the town after the game we got caught up in this, as the police blocked off the streets around the train and bus stations

Yeah, big pain in the arse for those of us waiting for a coach to get us the **** out of Nottingham.