Post Match City 1 Peterboro 1

[From Gradel to Grave]

A lot of people being unduly negative and some posting the same analysis again and again.

It's the usual response to a frustrating game or period. Because it happened on Saturday we are doomed to constantly repeat it.

The best way to properly judge quality of teams put out is goal difference and even with a famous lack of consistency we have the seventh best in the championship.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

A lot of people being unduly negative and some posting the same analysis again and again.

It's the usual response to a frustrating game or period. Because it happened on Saturday we are doomed to constantly repeat it.

The best way to properly judge quality of teams put out is goal difference and even with a famous lack of consistency we have the seventh best in the championship.

Personally, I think the ones who are deluding themselves into thinking we have one of the best squads in the division are the ones being negative as they are heaping unwarranted pressure and expectations onto the team. The rest of us are realising that we've not got the players to go up and are accepting that and so are not going overboard at bad results and saying we are "underperforming," because we don't think we are. The former group will be the ones calling for NP's head and moaning about "poor" results long before the latter group.

It's not the usual response to a frustrating game or period at all, there's been plenty of us who have been saying the squad is very average for months.

Goals per game (11th) and goals against per game (joint 8th-10th) is a much better way of measuring the quality of a team than goal difference.

 

[Miles Away]

Possibly Sousa's and Sven's that we've failed to improve on them four. We have another four midfielders signed by them pair which are currently no better.

Just because Pearson isn't playing the other don't mean they aren't better

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Just because Pearson isn't playing the other don't mean they aren't better

Yes, but their average at best performances this season (or in Abe's case, last season as well) certainly go a long way to showing they aren't.

 

[LeeCovFox]

The best way to properly judge the quality of teams put out is points on the board.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

The best way to properly judge the quality of teams put out is points on the board.

Ture.

 

[RHYDAL]

The best way to properly judge the quality of teams put out is points on the board.

[cliche]The table doesn't lie[/cliche]

 

[Profondo Rosso]

RHYDAL - how many of players of our squad do you reckon would get in your team?

 

[gregs_y2k]

The problems with the academy lies with Craig Levein, first and foremost, he was the one who changed the philosophy to bring in a load of big players, win at all costs at youth level. It takes years to overhaul your academy til you start producing good players again, because you've got to start training these players from scratch again.

Schmeichel is class, but having a great GK isn't going to win you any promotions. I disagree about Bamba being a PL player, he can be fantastic on his day, but is far too inconsistent and has too many erratic moments. Mills and SSL certainly don't look like players who belong in one of the best squads in the division. I think if you wouldn't swap Bamba, Mills or SSL for plenty of other players in the division then you must have been watching entirely different players to me this season. A run of 4 clean sheets isn't that amazing and shouldn't be an indicator of having one of the best defences in the division, Crystal Palace went on a 5 game clean sheet run earlier in the season ditto Birmingham, it's about how many you concede over 46 games, not how many you concede over 4 games . Do you not think our defence has had long enough to bed down yet? One of the problems imo and one of the reasons why you say it's all down to "bedding in" is that we don't have an organiser at the back a la Wayne Brown. Mills was obviously brought in to do this job, but he's as quiet as a mouse and never talks or tries to organise his defence when out on the pitch. This is certainly one type of player we definitely lack and need in the centre of defence.

I fail to see how most of our central midfielders would be ahead of the current first choice midfielders in any of the top 10? Who are you talking about here: King? Wellens? Johnson? Abe? Fernandes? Danns? You really think these players would waltz in and put the likes of Gary Taylor-Fletcher, Barry Ferguson, Kevin Nolan, Jack Collision, Don Cowie, Adam Clayton, Danny Pugh, Corry Evens, Robert Koren, Craig Noone, Matthew Bailey, Jobi McAnuff, Mikele Leigertwood etc. etc. on the bench? If so you have far, far more faith in the likes of Wellens, King, Abe, Johnson, Fernandes and Danns than I do, because to me these players just aren't good enough compared to the teams around us.

Again, what are you basing the Beckford and Nugent being excellent Championship strikers who are just underperforming on? What have they done, either here or in the past to show that they are top Championship strikers who are just underperforming? 7 games with Everton in the PL? Nugent getting a bizarre England call-up?

All good teams start with a good keeper and while I agree it doesn't make a great team a good keeper can get you 5 or 6 points over the course of a season. Look at how many points Vorm has single handedly got for Swansea already this term.

I'm not saying that all of our midfielders would oust all of the above and put them on the bench, but I'm saying that Most of the teams in the top half would definitely add them to their squads.

I don't think Nugent is underperforming, think he has settled very well and doing a very decent job for us and scored a lot of goals last season taking into consideration he was played out of position. Beckford admittedly hasn't set the world on fire yet but this often happens when moving clubs and his performances have improved and so I'm sure the goal swill start flowing soon.

A run of 4 clean sheets isn't amazing? It's the sign of a very solid defence. Yes you are right it's about what you do over 46 games but I'm saying that they are encouraging signs for a back 4 that has barely played together and given a full season they'll be a force to be reckoned with. Bamba is defintely a Premier League quality player. Yes he can make the odd mistake at times but he is incredible more often than not. Vidic and Ferdinand are not immune from the occasional bad game so it's very harsh to say that because he isn't perfect he couldn't get into a Premier League side and the fact teams have been keeping tabs on him says a lot. He's far better than the likes of Titus Bramble, who has enjoyed a long career in the top division despite being a calamitous baffoon.

Regarding the Youth team, yes I agree it takes time to turn around, but I don't recall Pearson making any attempt to implement any changes to the youth set up.

 

[Miles Away]

Fernandes and Johnson have both looked better than Wellens this season.

As for Dyer? Do me a favour.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

All good teams start with a good keeper and while I agree it doesn't make a great team a good keeper can get you 5 or 6 points over the course of a season. Look at how many points Vorm has single handedly got for Swansea already this term.

I'm not saying that all of our midfielders would oust all of the above and put them on the bench, but I'm saying that Most of the teams in the top half would definitely add them to their squads.

I don't think Nugent is underperforming, think he has settled very well and doing a very decent job for us and scored a lot of goals last season taking into consideration he was played out of position. Beckford admittedly hasn't set the world on fire yet but this often happens when moving clubs and his performances have improved and so I'm sure the goal swill start flowing soon.

A run of 4 clean sheets isn't amazing? It's the sign of a very solid defence. Yes you are right it's about what you do over 46 games but I'm saying that they are encouraging signs for a back 4 that has barely played together and given a full season they'll be a force to be reckoned with. Bamba is defintely a Premier League quality player. Yes he can make the odd mistake at times but he is incredible more often than not. Vidic and Ferdinand are not immune from the occasional bad game so it's very harsh to say that because he isn't perfect he couldn't get into a Premier League side and the fact teams have been keeping tabs on him says a lot. He's far better than the likes of Titus Bramble, who has enjoyed a long career in the top division despite being a calamitous baffoon.

Regarding the Youth team, yes I agree it takes time to turn around, but I don't recall Pearson making any attempt to implement any changes to the youth set up.

So again then, you're using the red herring of squad players and this strength in depth. The ability of your squad and back-up players isn't going to be winning you promotion if your first xi isn't that great.

If Nugent isn't underperforming then he simply isn't good enough to be the leading forward for one of the best sides in the division. He hasn't scored a lot of goals at all, 6 goals in 18 matches isn't what I'd call a very decent job for the leading striker in one of the best squads in the division, it's what I'd call a very average job for the leading striker in an average, mid-table side.

This back 4 has played together plenty throughout this season and in pre-season. What I mean is with regards to the 4 consecutive matches, you're basing it solely on the fact that it's in consecutive matches, if these 4 matches were spaced apart throughout the season you wouldn't even bring it up, what matters is how they do over 46 games, not over 4 games and so far, in the 21 games as a whole, the defence have been pretty average, certainly not one of the best in the division.

Yes, you can say it's about settling in as a partnership, but none of our central defenders have performed to a consistent level this season and judging by the general opinion fans of past clubs they've been at, they've never really performed at a consistent level throughout their careers. We also imo do definitely lack leadership and organisation at the back. Schmeichel seems to be the only one providing this, but a GK can't be doing this all the time when the defence is in far in front of him and when he has his own game to concentrate on, not the partnerships or defending of those in front of him.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Fernandes and Johnson have both looked better than Wellens this season.

As for Dyer? Do me a favour.

Dyer is a winger, Johnson and Fernandes aren't, where's the comparison?

What has Johnson done barring one good game against Cardiff reserves in the League Cup? And what has Fernandes done apart from having a good game against Coventry, the worst side in the league?

And how are these players going to add the creativity we obviously lack in midfield? Fernandes is an energetic ball winner and Johnson is player who drifts in an out of games player similar to King. Certainly neither is the creative midfielder we clearly lack.

 

[RHYDAL]

RHYDAL - how many of players of our squad do you reckon would get in your team?

This will probably be roundly derided, but I'd only have Beckford. We're playing 4-5-1 and when I look at the chances Miller has squandered, the only improvement a member of your team could offer would be him playing alone up front. I think he'd thrive.
What we're really lacking though is pace along the wings. Unfortunately, so are you.
Other than that, I think you have a team of individuals who just aren't gelling. I'm pleased to say we have a team of mainly unremarkable players who are all suited to each other, work hard and are full of confidence. And Whittingham is on fire. Malky has done a great job.
I would have been happy with scraping into the play offs at the start of the season.

 

[Blue Maniac]

RHYDAL - how many of players of our squad do you reckon would get in your team?

I'd guess at most two - one of which has played for Cardiff before.

 

[gregs_y2k]

So again then, you're using the red herring of squad players and this strength in depth. The ability of your squad and back-up players isn't going to be winning you promotion if your first xi isn't that great.

If Nugent isn't underperforming then he simply isn't good enough to be the leading forward for one of the best sides in the division. He hasn't scored a lot of goals at all, 6 goals in 18 matches isn't what I'd call a very decent job for the leading striker in one of the best squads in the division, it's what I'd call a very average job for the leading striker in an average, mid-table side.

This back 4 has played together plenty throughout this season and in pre-season. What I mean is with regards to the 4 consecutive matches, you're basing it solely on the fact that it's in consecutive matches, if these 4 matches were spaced apart throughout the season you wouldn't even bring it up, what matters is how they do over 46 games, not over 4 games and so far, in the 21 games as a whole, the defence have been pretty average, certainly not one of the best in the division.

Yes, you can say it's about settling in as a partnership, but none of our central defenders have performed to a consistent level this season and judging by the general opinion fans of past clubs they've been at, they've never really performed at a consistent level throughout their careers. We also imo do definitely lack leadership and organisation at the back. Schmeichel seems to be the only one providing this, but a GK can't be doing this all the time when the defence is in far in front of him and when he has his own game to concentrate on, not the partnerships or defending of those in front of him.

I'm basing it on the fact that we've had 7 clean sheets this season in the league and have a defensive record comparable to all of the top teams in the division. Southampton, have conceded exactly as many, West Ham 3 less, Cardiff one less. Middlesbrough are the only team with a significantly better defensive record. The back line is not the issue and is of promotion quality.

The midfield is where we lack the cutting edge. We play too narrow and don't create enough chances. This obviously is going to have an effect on the strike rate of your strikers. Nugent's goals tally is not a problem when considering the lack of opportunities the team as a whole creates. with the correct service I'm sure He'll score around 15 to 20 goals a season.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

I'm basing it on the fact that we've had 7 clean sheets this season in the league and have a defensive record comparable to all of the top teams in the division. Southampton, have conceded exactly as many, West Ham 3 less, Cardiff one less. Middlesbrough are the only team with a significantly better defensive record. The back line is not the issue and is of promotion quality.

The midfield is where we lack the cutting edge. We play too narrow and don't create enough chances. This obviously is going to have an effect on the strike rate of your strikers. Nugent's goals tally is not a problem when considering the lack of opportunities the team as a whole creates. with the correct service I'm sure He'll score around 15 to 20 goals a season.

7 clean sheets doesn't sound like one of the best defences in the division to me. 10 teams in the Championship have 7 or more clean sheets this season, again sounds about par for where we are in the league.

The back-line, or rather the central defenders is definitely an issue. Writing off conceding 3 goals less as nothing is ridiculous. That may not sound like much, but an extra 3 goals conceded can equate to 8 points and we're not even half way through the season yet. No doubt in my mind we can get better than what we've got and no doubt in my mind if we did we'd be in the play-offs right now as all 3, certainly Mills and SSL have cost us several points this season and have only gained us points which a lot of half decent centre-backs can do and Kasper has certainly saved their bacon on several other occasions too.

Do you rate Fryatt and Waghorn as strikers who would be leading strikers in the top teams in the division? Because they have virtually the same midfield and same service as Nugent and Beckford have had this season back in 09/10 and Nugent and Beckford have performed no better than they have. Fryatt has also scored more this season in a Hull side which have scored less. If Nugent with service would score so many goals, then he's obviously never had that service throughout his entire career as he's really never been a prolific scorer. Also, you can blame the service all you like, a good striker and certainly one who would be considered one of the best in the league (see Yakubu last season, with pretty much the same midfielders) will create his own chances.

 

[gregs_y2k]

7 clean sheets doesn't sound like one of the best defences in the division to me. 10 teams in the Championship have 7 or more clean sheets this season, again sounds about par for where we are in the league.

The back-line, or rather the central defenders is definitely an issue. Writing off conceding 3 goals less as nothing is ridiculous. That may not sound like much, but an extra 3 goals conceded can equate to 8 points and we're not only half way through the season yet. No doubt in my mind we can get better than what we've got and no doubt in my mind if we did we'd be in the play-offs right now as all 3, certainly Mills and SSL have cost us several points this season and have only gained us points which a lot of half decent centre-backs can do and Kasper has certainly saved their bacon on several other occasions too.

Do you rate Fryatt and Waghorn as strikers who would be leading strikers in the top teams in the division? Because they have virtually the same midfield and same service as Nugent and Beckford have had this season back in 09/10 and Nugent and Beckford have performed no better than they have. Fryatt has also scored more this season in a Hull side which have scored less. If Nugent with service would score so many goals, then he's obviously never had that service throughout his entire career as he's really never been a prolific scorer. Also, you can blame the service all you like, a good striker (see Yakubu last season, with pretty much the same midfielders) will create his own chances.

I didn't say 3 goals is nothing, I'm saying it is comparable. So for you to say that our back line is nowhere good enough to compete at the top is unsound, when our defence has conceded just as many as the leaders. I'm not saying our back line is perfect. It's not and there have been some big mistakes made. I'm saying that we don;t need wholesale changes and need to let them gel together.

We were a far better attacking team last season, creating far more chances than we have so far this term. I think Naughton and Van Arnholt offered more going forward down the flanks and therefore created far more chances. However, I agree the Yak is a different class and was gutted that he opted to holdout for a Prem team. Fair play to him though it has definitely worked out better for him.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

I didn't say 3 goals is nothing, I'm saying it is comparable. So for you to say that our back line is nowhere good enough to compete at the top is unsound, when our defence has conceded just as many as the leaders. I'm not saying our back line is perfect. It's not and there have been some big mistakes made. I'm saying that we don;t need wholesale changes and need to let them gel together.

We were a far better attacking team last season, creating far more chances than we have so far this term. I think Naughton and Van Arnholt offered more going forward down the flanks and therefore created far more chances. However, I agree the Yak is a different class and was gutted that he opted to holdout for a Prem team. Fair play to him though it has definitely worked out better for him.

Again, where have I said our back-line is nowhere near good enough to compete at the top is unsound? I said our central defenders are all very average players and far from being one of the best squads in the division. I think both our full-backs are both consistently good and our GK is fantastic and has made up for the averageness of our central defence in several games, but that our central defence is very medicore. 3 goals over 21 games, which would be 6 or 7 over 46 games isn't comparable at all. 1 goal isn't comparable, 1 goal can be 2 points difference in the league, 7 goals can be 14 points difference in the league.

All that matters is the points on the board and imo regardless of the attack and the midfield, regardless of how settled they are, if we had 2 consistently good Championship centre backs we'd be in the play-offs right now, our central defenders have cost us too many points and with consistently good Championship centre backs I honestly don't think we would have lost at least the 5 we are currently behind 6th place, probably more than those 5 points.

It's all well and good saying we should let them settle etc. but how "settled" they are doesn't matter one bit if the players aren't good enough and I honestly can't say I've seen anything from Bamba, Mills or SSL or heard anything from what they've done the past that suggests that they are anything other than inconsistent and error prone defenders and I don't think any amount of "settling" can change the fact that they are inconsistent and error prone players.

Yes, what you say about Southampton is true, if we had even half as good attack as Southampton then it wouldn't matter, ditto if we had a defence as anywhere near as good as Middlesbrough's it wouldn't matter that our attack and midfield isn't up to scratch so much either, but that's exactly my point: it's more than just the midfield or the attack, with the exception of the goalkeeper, we're just an average mid-table squad all over. If we want to go up we either have to drastically improve one area of the team to a much, much higher level, or we have to improve virtually the whole squad, because our centre of defence, our midfield, our attack, our wingers are all very average.

I'm still scratching my head as to why people think we have one of the best squads in the division when it's clear we have weaknessess all over the pitch.

 

[gregs_y2k]

7 clean sheets doesn't sound like one of the best defences in the division to me. 10 teams in the Championship have 7 or more clean sheets this season, again sounds about par for where we are in the league.

The back-line, or rather the central defenders is definitely an issue. Writing off conceding 3 goals less as nothing is ridiculous. That may not sound like much, but an extra 3 goals conceded can equate to 8 points and we're not only half way through the season yet. No doubt in my mind we can get better than what we've got and no doubt in my mind if we did we'd be in the play-offs right now as all 3, certainly Mills and SSL have cost us several points this season and have only gained us points which a lot of half decent centre-backs can do and Kasper has certainly saved their bacon on several other occasions too.

Do you rate Fryatt and Waghorn as strikers who would be leading strikers in the top teams in the division? Because they have virtually the same midfield and same service as Nugent and Beckford have had this season back in 09/10 and Nugent and Beckford have performed no better than they have. Fryatt has also scored more this season in a Hull side which have scored less. If Nugent with service would score so many goals, then he's obviously never had that service throughout his entire career as he's really never been a prolific scorer. Also, you can blame the service all you like, a good striker (see Yakubu last season, with pretty much the same midfielders) will create his own chances.

I didn't say 3 goals is nothing, I'm saying it is comparable. So for you to say that our back line is nowhere good enough to compete at the top is unsound, when our defence has conceded just as many as the leaders. I'm not saying our back line is perfect. It's not and there have been some big mistakes made. I'm saying that we don;t need wholesale changes and need to let them gel together.

We were a far better attacking team last season, creating far more chances than we have so far this term. I think Naughton and Van Arnholt offered more going forward down the flanks and therefore created far more chances. However, I agree the Yak is a different class and was gutted that he opted to holdout for a Prem team. Fair play to him though it has definitely worked out better for him.

Two red cards in 21 games is poor yes. accumulating a one match suspension from 5 yellow cards in that time is standard though for a central defender. If you think different then you're a bit deluded. Central defenders inevitably collect bookings.

Our back line is the last thing we should be looking to change in terms of purchases in January. It's strong enough to compete and our first port of call should be the wide midfield areas

 

[gregs_y2k]

Again, where have I said our back-line is nowhere near good enough to compete at the top is unsound? I said our central defenders are all very average players and far from being one of the best squads in the division. I think both our full-backs are both consistently good and our GK is fantastic and has made up for the averageness of our central defence in several games, but that our central defence is very medicore. 3 goals over 21 games, which would be 6 or 7 over 46 games isn't comparable at all. 1 goal isn't comparable, 1 goal can be 2 points difference in the league, 7 goals can be 14 points difference in the league.

All that matters is the points on the board and imo regardless of the attack and the midfield, regardless of how settled they are, if we had 2 consistently good Championship centre backs we'd be in the play-offs right now, our central defenders have cost us too many points and with consistently good Championship centre backs I honestly don't think we would have lost at least the 5 we are currently behind 6th place, probably more than those 5 points.

It's all well and good saying we should let them settle etc. but how "settled" they are doesn't matter one bit if the players aren't good enough and I honestly can't say I've seen anything from Bamba, Mills or SSL or heard anything from what they've done the past that suggests that they are anything other than inconsistent and error prone defenders and I don't think any amount of "settling" can change the fact that they are inconsistent and error prone players.

Yes, what you say about Southampton is true, if we had even half as good attack as Southampton then it wouldn't matter, ditto if we had a defence as anywhere near as good as Middlesbrough's it wouldn't matter that our attack and midfield isn't up to scratch so much either, but that's exactly my point: it's more than just the midfield or the attack, with the exception of the goalkeeper, we're just an average mid-table squad all over. If we want to go up we either have to drastically improve one area of the team to a much, much higher level, or we have to improve virtually the whole squad, because our centre of defence, our midfield, our attack, our wingers are all very average.

I'm still scratching my head as to why people think we have one of the best squads in the division when it's clear we have weaknessess all over the pitch.

Two red cards in 21 games is poor yes. accumulating a one match suspension from 5 yellow cards in that time is standard though for a central defender. If you think different then you're a bit deluded. Central defenders inevitably collect bookings.

Our back line is the last thing we should be looking to change in terms of purchases in January. It's strong enough to compete and our first port of call should be the wide midfield areas