Post Match Doncaster 2-1 Leicester

[Profondo Rosso]

All to inconsistent? Oh.. so that's how we made the play offs with them in the midfield for the majority of the season..

As I've said before, TS. We made the play-offs that season because of our fantastic defence, not because of our midfield or attack. We didn't score that many goals when we made the play-offs before, we made them because we conceded so few. You're judging what they've achieved as part of a team, not what they've achieved as an individual. Darren Fletcher and Michael Carrick have been part of several league title winning sides, it doesn't make them two of the best players in the PL. I think most would agree they're very average PL players.

Nugent has made a fair tally of goals at this level on a number of ocassions - whether you care to consider him as being prolific or not is up to you but the ability is there. He has scored again today but we have been on the end of another bad result.

Exactly, a fair tally. Exactly like Fryatt and Waghorn in 09/10. I bet you'll find Nugent has never scored more goals per minute in a season than Fryatt and Waghorn did that season and if he has, he did it in one season and it's barely by much more. That's what I keep saying, I've never said I think these players are shit, just average. Nugent is a decent player at this level who works hard, but he's certainly not a great player or one of the best strikers in the league, he's never going to be a 20 goal a season striker and he's clearly not a great creative striker either.

Mills, for all his error prone inconsistancy was still a big part of a Reading side that made the play off final last season and was always in and around the play offs leading up to that.

See above. (And from what I remember Reading were mid-table all season, but then won like 8 or 9 games in a row right at the end of the season to make them).

Fernandes isn't a creative player, he is a player like Abe who is a combative energetic ball winner, we knew this when we signed him - so why are you pointing out this as a weakness in his game? Do all our players have to be perfect at everything for you to be happy? Does this mean Kasper Schmeichel is crap because he can't finish for shit?I'm not going to consistantly argue with you about what the problem is with our season.

Abe, a combative energetic ball winner? Bloody hell! You've been watching a different player to me. I see Abe as a lightweight midfielder who is a good reader of the game.

I'm not pointing out it as a weakness at all. I'm saying that people keep complaining about our lack of creativity in midfield and then thinking Fernandes, Abe or Johnson are going to be the answer, but they aren't at all. We have no creative midfield players in the squad and just have a load of box to box players.

Back to the point you made about Brown and his leadership qualities, it's obvious Pearson recognises this as a problem. We know for a fact he has told Bamba he'd like him to be more vocal, this isn't really a question of ability but one of organisation - as I keep alluding to!

But it is both of those things! It is a question of organisation, but that is in itself a question of ability. Organisation, positioning intellegence and defensive disciplines are all individual skills. They are not something a manager can just tell any old player to do and they will do it like robots.

If you've ever played football, TS, you'll know that it's a game made of hundreds of individual decisions, it is not, like some people who are obsessed with formation seem to think, all about some tactics and a manager telling his players where to go like chess pieces. Chess is a game of patterns and limited fixed moves which are made at a certain time, football is not. There are too many variables, too many different situations throughout a football match, too many different ares as to where the ball and a players team-mates are at any given moment.

A manager can tell a player to do what he likes, he can't just make a player concentrate better for the full 90 minutes, he can't just make a player a more intelligent player at positioning and organising, he can't just make a player better at reading the game and making the correct decisions based on what is going on in that game at any given moment.

Wayne Brown had all those qualities in abundance, Sol Bamba does not. They're not just going to get these because the manager tells them to. To have a properly organised defence, you not only need a manager who can organise them, but you also need the players who can recognise the game as it unfolds and organise themselves and help organise their team-mates as each individual game's uniqueness plays out.

Defensive organisation is as much a case of ability as a defender's ability to win balls in the air or to tackle is and it's one ability our current central defenders all severely lack.

 

[TornadoShaunUK]

Are you purposefully acting stupid? I read the first line in that response and that was enough to convince me not to bother reading the rest as you conveniently missed out the bit where I wrote that our success that season was clearly not solely down to a decent defence, otherwise we'd have finished on 48 points which would not have been good enough for the play offs. A pretty clear and obvious flaw in your argument there. If the majority of what I say is going in one ear and out the other then there's not really much point bothering is there..

We evidantly had to be good in midfield and attack that season too, football is a team game after all. One area of the pitch does not a good side make.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Are you purposefully acting stupid? I read the first line in that response and that was enough to convince me not to bother reading the rest as you conveniently missed out the bit where I wrote that our success that season was clearly not solely down to a decent defence, otherwise we'd have finished on 48 points which would not have been good enough for the play offs. A pretty clear and obvious flaw in your argument there. If the majority of what I say is going in one ear and out the other then there's not really much point bothering is there..

We evidantly had to be good in midfield and attack that season too, football is a team game after all. One area of the pitch does not a good side make.

And I answered you back then and you didn't reply then. Of course it wasn't solely down to our defence, I said it was built around our defence, not that we had 5 players on the pitch, but our midfield was an average Championship midfield then, which is what it still is now, the difference is now we don't have the great defence which means we can't still grind out results in the way we did back then, making the lack of a great midfield not really matter.

I'm not saying the midfield was non-existent and I'm not purposely acting stupid at all and I think you'll be in the minority in thinking Wellens-King-Dyer-Gallagher is a great midfield at this level worthy of a top 6 side, just because we, built round a miserly defence made the play-offs with them before.

 

[Shents]

Not read the rest of this tread so at the risk of repeating points made , wtf are we doing playing king and wellens when abe and gelson can't get in the first xi. Both offer far more going foward and defensively than those two. Playing them will go along way to conceeding less goals and creating more chances.

 

[Micky]

Predictions for the January transfer window:

1. A big ugly hoofing centre back.
2. A big ugly hoofing centre forward.

Please could we also have:
3. A creative central midfielder and winger.

 

[fitz]

As I've said before, TS. We made the play-offs that season because of our fantastic defence, not because of our midfield or attack.

Absolute bollocks.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Interesting reading NP's post-match comments.

He basically said we are far too soft and said the players lack mental toughness and that he will either have to change that in the players or change the players.

 

[gregs_y2k]

As I've said several times, because I don't see that that is the issue. I don't see where people are getting the idea from these players are just underperforming. They've never shown that they are that great and this is just a spell of poor form.

Nugent has never been a prolific scorer.
Beckford has only been a prolific scorer in the lower leagues.
Fernandes is an energetic ball winner, but he's not going to provide us with any creativity.
Mills, by all accounts from Reading fans has always been an error-prone and inconsistent defender.
Ditto St. Ledger from PNE and Boro fans.
Danns was heralded in a medicore, relegation scrapping side and Palace fans don't seem to miss him, he was poor at Birmingham when they were a promotion chasing side.
Bamba has been refered to as being "bombscare Bamba" by his past teams.
We've seen Wellens, King, Dyer and Gallagher for enough time now to know they are all too inconsistent.

People all seem to be happy to accept our midfield is not good enough, because we've seen them for several years now, which I agree on, but why do people all of a sudden think Beckford and Nugent will score bagfuls of goals with the right service (and imo they really haven't lacked that much service anyway), or that Mills, St. Ledger and Bamba will suddenly become consistent defenders, when their record suggests differently?

Just because a striker isn't prolific doesn't make them rubbish either which you seem to be suggesting. On that basis Heskey must be terrible.

Beckford never got the opportunity to be a prolific scorer in the Premier league because he was used as a substitute more often than not. yet he was still their top scorer last season. Plenty of Everton fans were livid when he was sold to us.

Fernandes I'd like to see given at least the opportunity to prove you right or wrong.

Mills is still I think a very good quality defender and has been tipped as the best defender outside the premier league. He's been touted as a good defender since his time at Doncaster. So I think you are letting the steep price tag affect your judgement of him. I agree we paid over the odds for him but I don't think he's terrible in the slightest.

Bamba and his bombscare nickname again doesn't make him rubbish. I think we have all had those heart in mouth moments when he tries things. I've done it myself but he pulls them off. He's our best defender.

 

[alex]

****ing shit... Not good enough that, **** off you wankers

 

[Miles Away]

Someone take Profs batteries out for a bit please?

Any side that starts with Howard, Dyer, Wellens and King is not getting anywhere near the playoffs and I dont care what anyone says, Nigel has options in this squad.

Goals continue to leak from the left where an aging Konchesky is getting no help from a hapless Dyer.

As for Steve Howard? I mean, that's borderline taking the piss.

I have some faith in Pearson but it has been eroded slightly by his regressive moves. His lofty opinion of Wellens is baffling, as is his faith in Dyer.

I have to believe this result will be a huge eye opener for Pearson. He went back to what he knew in an attempt to steady the ship....it ain't working. Time to move forward.

 

[Redditch Fox]

We are a mid table side and one of a dozen or so who started the season with a shout at the play off positions. This is more or less what I expected because I - and a number of other people I spoke with over the Summer - was not taken in by the delusory claims of Sven, the Mockery and Stinger & co.

What matters now is to become grounded in reality and move forward. There is no point in wasting more money in the inflated January transfer market unless somone is available who will make a long term difference. I'm usually one of the first to think about changing managers and that's because most of our recent managers have been crap. In Sven's case he isn't just crap he's also got a fantastic gift for wasting other people's money. However, Pearson is an o.k. manager - not too exciting but knows his stuff. He has to be given time. We'll be playing in this division come next August and its going to tale all the time till then for Pearson to try to sort things out. Fortunately I think almost everyone understands now that there is no quick fix available.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Just because a striker isn't prolific doesn't make them rubbish either which you seem to be suggesting. On that basis Heskey must be terrible.

Beckford never got the opportunity to be a prolific scorer in the Premier league because he was used as a substitute more often than not. yet he was still their top scorer last season. Plenty of Everton fans were livid when he was sold to us.

Fernandes I'd like to see given at least the opportunity to prove you right or wrong.

Mills is still I think a very good quality defender and has been tipped as the best defender outside the premier league. He's been touted as a good defender since his time at Doncaster. So I think you are letting the steep price tag affect your judgement of him. I agree we paid over the odds for him but I don't think he's terrible in the slightest.

Bamba and his bombscare nickname again doesn't make him rubbish. I think we have all had those heart in mouth moments when he tries things. I've done it myself but he pulls them off. He's our best defender.

gregs, mate,I'm not saying that the likes of Bamba, Mills, Beckford and Nugent are rubbish and I never have done. I just don't think they are top Championship players who are just underperforming as some are suggesting, I think they are just decent and/or inconsistant Championship players and I also think we need to improve on these players if we really want to become one of the top sides in the division.

It's the same argument going round in circles, so I'll just sum up my points and leave it at that:

I just think this whole "it's the midfield" and that "Beckford and Nugent will score goals when they get decent service from the midfield" are just the latest excuses and scapegoats. Just as the team "hasn't gelled yet" was at the start of the season and the 4-3-3 formation was a bit later on, which now that we have switched to the 4-4-2 some fans were crying out for has shown to be no better.

To me, I don't think there are any excuses needed as I don't think this squad are underperforming as to their ability. I simply think the reason we are mid-table is because the quality of our squad and players is that of a mid-table one, I think that SGE wasted a lot of money on average and/or inconsistent Championship players and I think that people are still believing we have a great Championship squad because they are still, 22 games later, buying into the pre-season media hype that us and West Ham were supposedly going to run away with the league.

I also think that people who still hold these steadfast opinions that we have a top Championship squad who are simply underperfoming are placing ridiculous and unwarranted pressure on the side, which is only making things worse and some of these will no doubt be calling for NP's head soon enough.

 

[Matt_B]

****ing shit... Not good enough that, **** off you wankers

Tad over-reaction don't you think?

 

[alex]

So much utter drivel is talked about on here, the constant seems to be based around the sqUad not being good enough etc... Absolute shit. That squad would make most teams in this division proud, fact is this, they all think they deserve to win games before they've played them and today Donnie hopefully taught these lazy ****s that actual passion and desire is worth more than transfer fees alone. Wake up Leicester, you were ****ing dreadful second half, men against boys.

Fans get pissed on for having opinions, but frankly after that the fans should be getting something back from those over paid twats. That was dreadful you ****s

 

[Matt_B]

gregs, mate,I'm not saying that the likes of Bamba, Mills, Beckford and Nugent are rubbish and I never have done. I just don't think they are top Championship players who are just underperforming as some are suggesting, I think they are just decent and/or inconsistant Championship players and I also think we need to improve on these players if we really want to become one of the top sides in the division.

Nobody is saying they are top players though. As you said they are decent championship players. The arguments against yours are that the rest of the division is full of similar calibre players, so we don't need this top players to beat other teams, just a better ethic/moral/system or something else that I really don't know what.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

Nobody is saying they are top players though. As you said they are decent championship players. The arguments against yours are that the rest of the division is full of similar calibre players, so we don't need this top players to beat other teams, just a better ethic/moral/system or something else that I really don't know what.

You obviously haven't been reading gregs or TS' arguments.

Both have claimed that they are top players at this level.

And the ethic/moral/system all comes about by the players themselves to some extent. You can't change a player's personality or playing style. One thing we really lack is leadership and organisation at the back and player's aren't robots to which a manager can just decide how he makes every single decision on the pitch. That isn't just a case of managers telling players they need to be more vocal, it's a case of having defenders who are better at organising/more intelligent at reading the game, it's as much an ability as being able to win the ball in the air or to tackle well, hence why I think Wayne Brown was a better defender for us than Bamba.

 

[Matt_B]

You obviously haven't been reading gregs or TS' arguments.

Both have claimed that they are top players at this level.

And the ethic/moral/system all comes about by the players themselves to some extent. You can't change a player's personality or playing style. One thing we really lack is leadership and organisation at the back and player's aren't robots to which a manager can just decide how he makes every single decision on the pitch. That isn't just a case of managers telling players they need to be more vocal, it's a case of having defenders who are better at organising/more intelligent at reading the game, it's as much an ability as being able to win the ball in the air or to tackle well, hence why I think Wayne Brown was a better defender for us than Bamba.

But as you say it is the whole player that makes a difference and Brown's racist attitude and disruptive influence at a key time mean he wasn't, to me at least.

I agree with what you say, I don't know what element is missing at the minute but I honestly believe that the players are good enough to get us in to the playoff come the end of the season.

 

[Redditch Fox]

So much utter drivel is talked about on here, the constant seems to be based around the sqUad not being good enough etc... Absolute shit. That squad would make most teams in this division proud, fact is this, they all think they deserve to win games before they've played them and today Donnie hopefully taught these lazy ****s that actual passion and desire is worth more than transfer fees alone. Wake up Leicester, you were ****ing dreadful second half, men against boys.

Fans get pissed on for having opinions, but frankly after that the fans should be getting something back from those over paid twats. That was dreadful you ****s

The issue of "good enough" extends to factors like personality and motivation. I suggest that a number of players have been recruited on a false agenda - too much money whether though cuts of inflated fees and/ or inflated wage levels. I doubt if they are up for battling it out to achieve improvement. One thing that could be done is to stop players being signed up to make absurd media statements. They should save their energy for the training ground. Everyone knows that they are quite incapable of putiing together two decent persormances and it just adds insult to injury when someone like St Ledger whose personal contribution has been minimal is spouting on about no need to worry etc.

 

[Profondo Rosso]

But as you say it is the whole player that makes a difference and Brown's racist attitude and disruptive influence at a key time mean he wasn't, to me at least.

I agree with what you say, I don't know what element is missing at the minute but I honestly believe that the players are good enough to get us in to the playoff come the end of the season.

Exactly and I agree about Brown's disruption at the end of a season, but I still think he did a very underrated job here.

But as you say, a player is a whole package, it's not just how many Hollywood tackles he makes or how hard he works. How much a player concentrates for 90 minutes and doesn't make mistake and how well he organises is part of that.

If we lack defensive organisation then that is as much a problem with the defenders' abilities as defenders as if they couldn't head the ball to save his life. You can't just blame the manager for lack of organisation, that is down largely to the player's poor ability in that area.

Pearson said in his post-match interview he believes our squad isn't strong enough and is "too soft" and seemed to indicate that he referred to strength as both a mental and physical strength. These are as much slating a player's abilities as saying he cannot pass a ball or shoot.

 

[fitz]

The Brown/Bamba discussion doesn't seem entirely fair to me as Brown played behind a team of players who tried to work as a unit. Countless times our central defenders have had to deal with one on ones as the midfield stand and watch, I think they've dug us out of the shit plenty times in similar situations Brown was often found back peddling, fact is it was a rare circumstance for him to have to deal with.